China does not care if trade between the USA and china is fair or any thing else
They have reasons much morre important to them than trade balance, money or any thing else
China will tell anybody that will listen, that in approx 15 yrs they went from 3rd world status to a modern leading world power
This may or not be true but in china they firmly believe this
China wants to be known as a world super power. China wants the world to respect their super power status
In china one of the worst things that can happen to the ruling class or the country as a whole is to "lose face"
You have to look at their history
They look back and are a shamed of their past weekness
They hate Japan with a passion, every single person in china feels this way. The Japanese occupation and the china/Japan opium wars. Chinese civilians were treated like slaves. Going even further back into their history their country has been occupied by foreign countries or people for centuries They " lost face" for hundreds of yrs and were "shamed" in the process"
If china agreed to terms with the USA this would be considered a great lose of face to the whole country
The leaders must be seen as strong, and doing what is best for china. Japan is an ally of the USA. Thus with their history of Japanese occupation and opium wars and the fact of Japan/USA alliance this is like rubbing salt into an open wound
As I said previously,China does not care about words, contracts, money, balance of payments, right or wrong as the USA sees things. etc. They want respect from thhe world as a super power. Any concessions from china would be viewed as a sign of weakness
They did not rise from 3rd world status to become a lessor world power, if they agree to trade terms, dictated by the USA
China has a much different view point than the USA does. This is a clash of vastly different cultures
So: What has china done so far???
China is buying huge amounts of gold
China seems to be trying to accomodate russia as an ally
China is buying large amounts of commodities and surplus food
China is wiling to wage a currency war.
China is willing to spend billions to prop up the PBOC
This is a trade war that will not be easy to win.
Unless the USA charts a different course of action, china has already decided what they will do. They have started in a new direction and the USA will become less and less of a trade partner. They have decided the price is too much to have any part of trade with the USA
If history is of any value, to tell us what happens next
Usually when you see conditions such as this a war happens
Unfortunately we have many countries with nuclear arms
You make some profound points Wayne.
What most people probably don’t know is what their terms were for agreeing to sign up for the climate accord. President Obama spent several days meeting with their president to work out this agreement in 2014. I’ll show it to you later today when back on the computer,
They agreed to consider cutting CO2 emissions by the year 2030 with no solid commitments to cut before then,
What the heck? You might think, how did they get away with that.
1. Obama was desperate to claim that China was on board with the bogus climate accord to make it look legit because China is the worlds biggest CO2 emitter by far and getting bigger.
2, China basically laughed at the climate accord because they know its nothing but a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor country’s.
3. in the accord, if you are a poor, undeveloped ountry you are allowed to increase your CO2 emissions. And the best part is that you receive “climate reparations” from the rich countries who supposedly damaged your climate(which is the best climate in the last 1,000 years).
So China told Obama.....you want to use our country to sell the climate accord......you designate us as a poor/undeveloped country so we get all the benefits and have to pay none of the penalties.obama agreed.
The US, on the other hand, as a rich/developed country would have zero benefits and pay all the penalties.
This is how the United Nations re balances the disparity of wealth and resources across the globe using the climate accord, which has zero affect on the climate.
Imagine the difference for China, after making this sweet deal with the previous president, based 100% on benefits for the,how it’s leader feels about the deal our current president is forcing on them?
Mostly benefits for the US this time in an attempt by the current administration to reverse previous abuses by them .....make the rules more balanced and fair.....to reverse one sided dynamics and unfair/unethical applications by them at the expense of the USA and world,
They would be crazy to not just wait for the next Obama like president to be elected so they can resume the nothing but one sided sweet deal relationship.
They are experiencing tremendous econmic pain right now. If trump is re elected, they will likely be forced to make concessions. If he is defeated, they go back to blatantly abusing the US with impunity ,,,,,,for sure.
Why would that not be the case?
"The ball is in China's court"- Ag Sec. Sonny Perdue at Farmfest. He's right but China also holds all the marbles in the game.
Let's go back in time to 2014, when the MSM's top story was celebrating Obama's accomplishment of getting China to sign up for the Climate Accord after China's previous position was not wanting to be part of an anti science, economy killing agreement which would stifle their country's future growth.
From the NY Times:
"Beijing (CNN)In a historic climate change deal, U.S. President Barack Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping announced both countries will curb their greenhouse gas emissions over the next two decades.
Under the agreement, the United States would cut its 2005 level of carbon emissions by 26% to 28% before 2025. China would peak its carbon emissions by 2030 and will also aim to get 20% of its energy from zero-carbon emission sources by the same year. "
In celebrating this huge accomplishment by Obama, it's as if they didn't even read the terms of the agreement in the last paragraph. Let's cover that on the next page.
China didn't change their position at all. It was originally to not agree to cuts that would stifle its economy and not to make any contributions. What changed was that Obama just changed the terms of the agreement for China to THEIR terms, then claimed he had hashed out an agreement to get them on board.
Those terms from China were that they would NOT commit to any CO2 emissions cuts until possibly the year 2030, which is when they thought they would be peaking based on their previous position and even better, the got Obama to agree to put them in the category of "developing country" in the accord which meant, besides not requiring cuts, they would be eligible to receive money from country's like the US supposedly as payment for climate damage reparations.
So let's see exactly how that agreement has worked out, now that we have several years of data to go by since it was made(China's CO2 emissions have soared higher and will soon be double those of the US, which has made cuts the last 10 years):
The other part of it is the money(which is a big reason why Trump withdrew):
The United States contributed $1 billion to the global Green Climate Fund, but the world’s top polluters contributed nothing, David Asman reported.
But of course China and India contributed nothing while increasing their emissions the most. That was part of the agreement, in fact the agreement means they GET money!!!
"Top Chinese Climate Negotiator Xie Zhenhua has responded to a parade of official reassurances about the Paris Climate Agreement, by demanding to know when “developed” countries will start paying China the money which was promised in Paris."
Here's more about China building coal plants and increasing CO2 right now:
SHANGHAI/BEIJING (Reuters) – Approvals for new coal mine construction in China have surged in 2019, government documents showed, with Beijing expecting consumption of the commodity to rise in the coming years even as it steps up its fight against smog and greenhouse gas emissions.
Long-term cuts in coal consumption are a key part of China’s energy, environment and climate goals, but the fivefold increase in new mine approvals in the first-half of 2019 suggests China’s targets still provide ample room for shorter-term growth.
China’s energy regulator gave the go-ahead to build 141 million tonnes of new annual coal production capacity from January to June, compared to 25 million tonnes over the whole of last year, Reuters analysis of approval documents showed.
So we have the indisputable evidence of this Climate Accord deal between the US and China being the worst deal imaginable for the US.............all the penalties/price and the best deal imaginable for China...............all the benefits, no penalties.
Still being reported as a break through success by the Obama administration and thru the use of fake news and false narratives misleads us into thinking it did the complete opposite of the reality of what happened.
They can't possibly still doing this here in August 2019 after 3 years of data proving it was the worst deal imaginable and not what one side claimed?
You bet they are. This was yesterday:
"During a campaign stop in Iowa on Thursday, former vice president Joe Biden touted China’s decision to sign the Paris Climate Accords as the Obama administration’s chief accomplishment with respect to the hostile foreign power.
“We did an awful lot with China. What we did with China, first of all, was we got them to join the Paris peace accord — the climate accord,” Biden told a reporter at a campaign appearance in Iowa"
This brings to mind the expression: "With friends like this, who needs enemies" (-:
metmike: But the Climate Accord was never about the climate...........this has been the world's greatest ruse, hijacking climate science for the political agenda. The China story is now far enough into the agreement to prove the fraudulence.
Here's another way to show it graphically. The effects of the commitments/agreements, if fulfilled completely..............would do almost nothing to the climate:
"Activists think the world will be uninhabitable for our children if the U.S. pulls out of the Paris Climate Accord. For example, via Vox
Quitting the Paris climate agreement would be a moral disgrace
President Trump is selling out our kids to give false hope to coal workers.
There is no employment upside to an “America First” retreat from global leadership on one of the few issues that can accurately be described as a potentially existential threat to humankind.
There is only the profound immorality of abdication — of gleefully passing a mounting problem on to our children, and on to the poor.
Unfortunately Canada signed on to the green deal
So we transfer wealth to some where
I don't think china ever saw a contract they honoured
We travelled to china a few yrs ago
That was an eye opener
Our rooms and luggage was searched, when we were out of the room
Our tour guide had to be very careful what he said and told us, as he had a sachel he carried which I suspected contained a tape recorder
When he was done school he was given two choices for his life work One was a tour guide and I forget the other choice. [I think a secondary school teacher]
That was when they had the one child policy
We know they did everything to have that one child be male
However, that back fired on them as the few girls available, allowed them to pick and choose according to how much money their husband would make
The men were called ATM's
Bqck to contracts
We see time and again how in the past china would buy soy beans and then cancel the purchase
They had enough volume to actually manipulate the soybean market
But, seems like Obama did not understand china and the other things you mention
There is so much our people do not understand, about china
When we go to the store we pay the price on a jar of pickles or what ever. In china they would never pay the listed price. That is a starting point and then negotiations over price begins. They actually bragged to us that no contract is ever honoured as originally stated. Contracts are when negotiation starts. That is their culture and in many other places in the world. We seem to have a hard time getting that kind of culture wrapped around our brain.
The top dogs have to be fearless and strong, and have complete control over the military
They also use this saving face thing to talk to their people through state controlled media. The entire country understands they must save face and as they increase their standard of living they consider them selves equal to the USA
They aren't but they think they are. That is what they are told.
So: For any number of reasons china will never agree to the trade agreement, with Trump
Strangely enough, when we were in china the farmers were considerd the richest group of people
That tells you how important a food supply is in china
That is one reason I posted about the worms eating their crops
We know they have lost millions of hogs, the worms ate huge areas of plants, mostly soybeans I think, so It is no wonder they have imported more food this yr than any yr in the past. And they had no apparent problems sourcing food from other parts of the world
If another Trump comes along they will wait for ever, until they see something that is in their favour
They are not that many yrs removed from hard times. The can and will suffer, if their leaders tell them to tighten the belt
Equal or balanced trade, contracts you name it is some thing china does not do
This is just their culture and you don't change 100's of yrs of culture because of a trade war. So the economy doesn't grow. The media will tell then they are better than the rest of the world. And they will believe what they are told.
Until the USA understands their culture, nothing will change
Trade wars are not so easy to win
China is not Canada
That is just the way it is in china
By the way, when we were in china, they had the previous trouble in Hong Kong
Our television had 3 channels we could understand
CNN BBC and something else
When CNN or?? reported on Hong Kong our TV would be blacked out. That is an example of state sponsored and controlled media coverage
The other thing was the large presence of military vechicles, in the city, and army people, fully armed, standing at street corners, watching the people