Identity ‘fusion’ with political leader
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Started by pj - Sept. 5, 2019, 4:09 p.m.

“When you fuse with a leader you are prone to abandon the values you had in a past life ..."

By TimNew - Sept. 5, 2019, 5:52 p.m.
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Interesting article.  I did not notice examples of occurrence's of this "fusion" created violence. Most of the examples I see of political violence seems to be directed at people who wear MAGA hats, or from ANTIFA towards anyone who disagree with them.   I wonder who they are "fused" with.

And I don't know how anyone could support a "Muslim Ban" since one never existed.  

But it is an interesting read. 

By joj - Sept. 6, 2019, 6:30 a.m.
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"And I don't know how anyone could support a "Muslim Ban" since one never existed. "

From the Cato Institute (a libertarian think tank):

By TimNew - Sept. 6, 2019, 7:01 a.m.
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I understand that spin is essential to your belief structure,  but in the final analysis, when 95+% of the worlds Muslims could/can travel freely to and within this country,  you simply cannot label it as a "Muslim Ban" no matter how badly you want to.

Facts just don't care about your feelings.

By metmike - Sept. 6, 2019, 10:46 a.m.
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Thanks pj!

We miss your more frequent posts here!

On the study:

"While the seven studies focused on those who identify as Republicans"

Tells us pretty much that they would find this.

By metmike - Sept. 6, 2019, 11:21 a.m.
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Pretty funny that you are suddenly going back to something from 2 years ago that has long since been debunked (just like the colluding with Russia bs that was long ago debunked but won't go away) nd in fact, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Trump on this:

The Left’s Response to SCOTUS Travel-Ban Ruling Is Typically Baseless

North Korea’s and Venezuela’s involvement in the “Muslim ban” suggests one of two things: Either President Trump hates Confucian-infused atheists and Catholics almost as much as he loathes Muslims, or, once again, these travel restrictions have nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with shielding the United States from the citizens of terrorist-infested countries that cannot or will not help U.S. officials vet their own nationals who want to enter America.

John Roberts’s majority opinion vanquishes the Left’s “anti-Muslim bigotry” narrative.

  • Trump’s “policy covers just 8 percent of the world’s Muslim population,” the chief justice observed. A truly Islamophobic reform surely would try harder. Neither Indonesia nor Pakistan is on this list. To detest Muslims yet exclude Islam’s two most populous countries is as absurd as hating Francophones and consequently restricting travelers from Haiti and Togo but welcoming Frenchmen and Canadians.


I  appreciate the good trading posts that you mix in here with your Trump bashing for the sake of Trump bashingv vs Trump critiquing by using objective facts( searching the internet and plucking out old(debunked) stories) because they attack Trump(for something he was correct on).

With people that do this, I am much more concerned about this:

Oh, by the way. You have now set a record for somebody violating what most moderators would allow but I am letting your stay here because the standard for one side has obviously got to be set lower. When a moderator asks you nicely 7 times to respond to a post attacking them, what do you think the expectation by the moderator would be? When the poster completely ignores the moderator, what do you think the response of the moderator should be?

Speaking for myself, as the moderator this is my respond: Just keeping reposting my request to you, now with an analysis and either have you respond as a responsible adult that respects rules and other people or ignores them and having it continue to haunt him indefinately as he suffers the accountability for making statements here that he thinks he doesn't need to have.


                Re: Re: Re: Manufacturing contracts  in August            


                By metmike - Sept. 1, 2019, 1:17 a.m.            


            Speak for yourself joj.............actually, I wish that you would be a responsible adult and speak for yourself. This is my 6th time asking you to respond.


                By metmike - Aug. 22, 2019, 2:25 p.m.            

I'm still waiting for you to respond to my question about why you made up this statement about me. Is this the 5th time that I asked now?

"But criticizing Obama is WHAT Mike?   

'Cause you were dishing it out pretty good there for the last few years."


By pj - Sept. 6, 2019, 2:21 p.m.
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Hard for me to believe that pre-Trump, someone who perpetually and blatantly demonstrated dishonesty and nastiness wouldn't have  completely put you off.

By GunterK - Sept. 6, 2019, 2:30 p.m.
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Yale, University of Oslo... wow...high-powered stuff!

quoting from the original article "“This is not about Democrats or Republicans,” said John (“Jack”) Dovidio, professor of psychology at Yale and co-author of the paper. “When you fuse with a leader you are prone to abandon the values you had in a past life and engage in extreme actions in support of the leader.”

But then, their test subjects are all Republicans... quite obviously, this it not an academic study, but a political hatchet job, disguised as an academic study.

Did any of Gandhi's followers fuse with Gandhi and cause violence?

As far as that "travel ban" is concerned... the ban that hateful people even today still call a Muslim Ban, even though it wasn't (it was a travel ban for terrorist-infested countries)... 

IMHO, a very significant reaction came from Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam, here in the US..... and I am quoting from memory... he said that he totally agreed with Trump's travel ban. Letting people from these countries in, would be like inviting cancer into your body.

By TimNew - Sept. 6, 2019, 2:31 p.m.
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I don't think anyone likes Trump..  Well maybe very few...     But if you look for results,  that's a different story.

By metmike - Sept. 7, 2019, 12:56 a.m.
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"Hard for me to believe that pre-Trump, someone who perpetually and blatantly demonstrated dishonesty and nastiness wouldn't have  completely put you off."

Yeah, you make a wonderful point pj.  Trump is greatly lacking in many personality traits.

Fortunately(I think) as a scientist I can focus on facts and not emotions.

One of them is Trump is made to be numerous times worse than he is. This sounds like I'm defending him and I am a bit but there are dozens of examples, actually more like hundreds of them featuring  the media completely mischaracteriszing him and lying about him.

They repeat it over and over and sell it as a fact by doing it in unison to the point that everybody believes it and NEVER believes Trump.

This last incident with Dorian for instance. Trump brought it on himself but because he knows that he was right about Dorian threatening  Alabama(for 5 days) and the MSM is wrong, he takes on the MSM and they obliterate him even though he is 100% right.

He comes out looking like a liar, when the MSM actually has it wrong.

On climate change, he absolutely has the honest, authentic view and the dems, are not only dead wrong about the climate optimum on this greening planet but they are falling all over themselves to get more extreme and even more wrong each year(as it continues to be better than models and other forecast, they claim that its worse and we only have until 2030 to save the planet).

I cannot think of a lie or even several lies added up by Trump that come close to this lie thats growing bigger each year.

If Pinocchio had  been telling the weather and climate lies, his nose would be 100 feet long by now.  But they sound so dang convincing and are effectively selling a disengenous "save the planet" narrative.

Trump is portrayed constantly as somebody destoying the planet for being the most honest of anybody. 

Who is telling the more of the truth about the Southern Border? Trumps is portrayed as the bad guy, when his policies are far superior.

Who is doing the right thing to get China to play by ethical/fair rules with the US? He is constantly bashed on this.

I'll bet that half the people think that he's a racist(with no substantive evidence, just misleading, twisted and biased facts-yeah, it those facts that count for this scientist).

No question that he is mean, is lacking in sincere compassion and a few other traits.

And he is missing a key attribute that almost every successful, lying sac of sheet politician has...........the ability to use their charm to tactfully sell political lies. Some are gifted at it and very likeable. 

Trump is the worst in history. You can tell when he's reading from a teleprompter.  He doesn't even care about tact, probably related to his huge ego but partly because he's not trying to hide things. When he believes in something, especially if its good he gets into the most trouble. He will embellish, exaggerate and bs about something good and the media will fact check him, catch his errors in numbers, for instance and twist it into a reason for it to be bad, while taking down his credibility another notch.

Sorry for another epistle as Alex used to call them.


Do you think that the Russia investigation and reporting was fair to Trump?

Who might you vote for next year?

Do you still consider yourself a libertarian or independent?

What about the dems runnning right now?. 

By pj - Sept. 7, 2019, 2:54 p.m.
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Do you think that the Russia investigation and reporting was fair to Trump?

  Certainly not completely, though I don't think it was as unfair as you do. That said, wouldn't put it past Trump to do anything, no matter how unscrupulous, if he thought it would help him win. And, there is something very odd about his bromance with Putin.

Who might you vote for next year?

  Looks likely I'll vote Libertarian (again) or stay home. Though, whereas in Washington my vote had no chance of making a difference, here in NV, it actually might.

Do you still consider yourself a libertarian or independent?

  Yes, though until GW's 2nd term, I always wound up voting Republican.

What about the dems runnning right now? 

  Having a hard time finding anyone that I can warm up to ... all way too far left for me.  Think Yang is a bright, interesting guy.

By metmike - Sept. 7, 2019, 5:43 p.m.
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Do you think that the Russia investigation and reporting was fair to Trump?

  "Certainly not completely, though I don't think it was as unfair as you do. That said, wouldn't put it past Trump to do anything, no matter how unscrupulous, if he thought it would help him win. And, there is something very odd about his bromance with Putin."

Thanks for all the answers pj!

I've always considered you very neutral and objective on almost everything, especially climate change where you have some good critical thinking and understanding in science.

Your comments above confirm my previous thoughts on how people perceive Trump and why they accept abuses of him that would NEVER have been tolerated of previous presidents. 

No matter what the accusation, evidence or not, people think "It's unscrupulous Trump, he could have done it, whatever they do to him is justified"

The oddest thing about his "bromance" with Putin is how its been portrayed by the media since they started the Trump-Russia Collusion narrative being used to explain his win and to vilify him.

Trump has strange, never before occurring relationships with all sorts of leaders.

N.Korea went from a mortal enemy to best friend. China, Iran, Russia, Finland, France.

During the 2+ years of convincing people that Trump colluded with Russia this was imparted in their brains. As you know better than most, once somebody believes something, even if its false, its almost impossible to get them to believe the truth.

This will be seen as defending Trump by some but its  nothing more than objective truths. I stated this recently after being wrongly accused of bashing Obama(it never happened but people assume that anybody that defends Trump must also be an Obama hater because they can't connect with objectivity and open mindedness in todays world.

"I think that Obama has a good heart and was a gifted charismatic communicator. His policies on health care and other issues were sincerely intended to help the poor. He  promoted peace with the Muslim world. His position on gun violence/control also had the best interest in heart. He was very charitable with US assistance of  money/donations/resources to poor countries. "

I personally have a great dislike for Donald Trump, the man. If I could rank him as a human being on a scale of 1-10, he would be around a 2-3(keep in mind that rapists and pedophiles exist and he's not that low).

Why do I support his agenda and unfair attacks on him?


1. His policies/platform are not him.  I'm well aware that reputation and our relationship with other countries is big but the rest of the world is trying to screw us over royal with the climate accord(we commit many billions and cut fossil fuels to do nothing for the climate........which is a climate optimum anyway.)

2. When I read scientific papers/studies/research results, I would never care about the scientists that did the work. If their work has value/knowledge/understanding and represents truth, who cares about anything else. ............for me at least. Almost no people will vote for president with the mind of a scientist(too bad) They will vote because they like Trump(or don't hate him so much that they can see his agenda) or because they hate his guts and vote for the other person.

3. What almost nobody realizes right now is that the objective around the world and in the US is global socialism via the UN, I'm 100% certain and I show the facts here:

I'm 95-98% sure that it is coming, no matter what we do and Trump is the only thing in the way at the moment. pj, you can't connect with the extreme ideas of the dems but think about it, of all the ones running, how many represent the moderate dems of old(that I voted for and maybe you did too)?

Answer: ZERO

With that large number and all of them being extreme(by our standards) ....they have even forced Biden to morph far left because he knows that is the only way to win, because he knows that's where the Dem party is going. On what planet does anybody think that dems will suddenly become more moderate? With ever year that goes by, it the complete opposite........more extreme because the younger generation has been indoctrinated with this belief system. Us older people, like every other time in history with whatever ideas we have/had will be replaced and we are just getting a glimpse of what is to come with the new generation based on the Dems running right now.

In the transition, like every other tine in history, the old system and people defending it will be in complete denial that the new system is coming(funny that I get called the climate denier). In real time, as plays out, it only becomes obvious to the deniars after their old way has been obliterated beyond hope. People are creatures of hope(which is good) and will deny realities past the point of logic.

This applies to climate change policies too. Though I battle for truth and authentic climate science, my power to enlighten people that a climate optimum is being twisted into a climate emergency for global and US socialism  is a drop in the bucket compared to the billions of people on the planet against me.


Yes, many billions of people. The vast majority of people and countries on this planet are poor. Of course they are all signed up for the climate accord. They get everything(money) and it includes China/India who can emit as much CO2 as they want...part  of the deal. 

The not so numerous rich countries are led by increasingly very liberal politicians also on board with this belief system. Trump is an outlier/aberration that can't be sustained-no way- when almost the entire rest of the world is against his nationalism  and the dems/MSM are winning the battle to defeat him.

Nobody is viewing the big picture because they only see this as a hate Trump or support Trump issue. 

With regards to global socialism. I am very strongly in favor of the more equitable distribution of resources that this represents. The US consumes way too much and there are way too many very poor people suffering that would have massive improvements in the quality of their lives if we would give more of what we had to them.

I am for a plan to do that but not perpetrated with fraud to trick people..........hijacking climate science, rewriting climate history and lying about the climate optimum and the climate accord. Climate science will take many decades to recover, if ever from this intentional dumbing down of people for a political agenda.

One can ask "if they didn't do it this way, could the same thing be accomplished by being transparent and not pretending this was a "save the planet" endeavor?

Answer, no!

At least not this fast. Using the truth, it might take many more decades. Scaring people into thinking we need theese actions right now because of the climate emergency is the only way to accelerate the time frame.

The sad thing is that the ability of the gatekeepers  to indoctrinate/brainwash people on a global scale like this will not just end with this  major accomplishment. It defines the new order.  People clearly will not do the homework needed in their busy lives to verify what they are hearing is actually the truth.  "Their" truth is what they hear and see repeated over and over on the MSM or by world governments. We have lost our ability to do the critical thinking that was used in the past because we HAD to use that to figure things out for ourselves. Now we are cerebrally lazy and rely on the MSN and news sources to tell us the facts because thats their job.

The power of electronics has created a globally connected monstrosity of a propaganda machine that bombards billions of people into a cult of the brainwashed, maximizing the technology to impose a belief system(s) around the planet.

It's already happened with the climate crisis(emergency).  Profound changes because of it are right around the corner.

By pj - Sept. 7, 2019, 6:54 p.m.
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Thanks for all your feedback.

"The oddest thing about his "bromance" with Putin is how its been portrayed by the media."

Can't agree with that. Among other things, what about Trump saying he takes the word of Putin that the Russians didn't try to meddle in the election, when it seems our whole intelligence community is convinced they did?

I was no Obama fan and believe you when you say you never bashed him, but certainly a lot people on the right did, including you know who. Maybe the bashing wasn't as bad as what's going on with Trump (not surprising given that most of the media leans left), but compared to "days of old" in my view it was pretty relentless.

Just as I blame Obama for pulling the pendulum so far to the left that it swung back to the right and gave us Trump (of course, with the help of the Dems nominating Hillary), I'm going to blame Trump, if it swings back so far to the left that one of the Dem hopefuls get elected. BTW and FWIW I'm not as "pessimistic" about Trump's reelection chances as you are.  From my point of view an I presume others in the "shrunken" middle, our political situation seems to be in a "rock and hard spot" sad state of affairs.

By metmike - Sept. 7, 2019, 8:26 p.m.
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"The oddest thing about his "bromance" with Putin is how its been portrayed by the media."

Can't agree with that. "

So you think that the media is providing us with an accurate portrayal of the relationship between Trump and Russia?

One only has to point to the 2+ years and thousands of stories bombarding our brains about him colluding with Putin and Russia to show that's not the case.

He did none of that.

This was the quintessential example  of widespread political activism capitalizing on a narrative using fake news by the community of, what is supposed to be professional journalists for the sole purpose of destroying President Trump. 

Sound like an exaggeration?

Only to those that think that Trump got what he deserved. 

He deserves to be held accountable for all corrupt actions as well as fact checked and held accountible for statements.  One would think that with so much of that, they would not need to make up so much of the other stuff that would be completely rejected by fair thinking people if this were any other president.

Trump uses the word invasion......................and is blamed for mass shootings because a shooter used that word.

Last year he was blamed for Hurricane Florence.

Trump attacks a black man from a city, Baltimore with mostly blacks...............racist.

He plays for the Jewish vote using his pro Israel platform and chastising US Jews for not recognizing this(bad idea) and it gets twisted into him being antisemitic.  What the heck.

Southern border and wall...............xenophobe and racist.

Is this how Obama was treated? For sure not by the gatekeepers of all the information and how it gets interpreted....the MSM but yes, the right and Fox news attacked him unfairly and relentlessly. 

I never felt the need to defend Obama on some of that silly stuff............actually, as I stated several times, I didn't even follow politics closely until becoming the moderator here and deciding to hold posters accountable to telling the truth.............which often is my own fact checking.

To be honest, its wearing me out but I'm enjoying reconnecting with somebody that I've known here for what must be a decade and a person who I've discussed some great climate stuff with(who understands it-asks all the right/good questions)

By pj - Sept. 8, 2019, 12:12 p.m.
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"So you think that the media is providing us with an accurate portrayal of the relationship between Trump and Russia?"

I wasn't talking about all the stuff you mention, but the "bromance", which I've never heard a good explanation for and think has even raised eyebrows by some on the right. IMO early on Trump found an admirer in Putin and apparently  that's all that's necessary to win Tump's (undying) favor, other considerations be damned. Again, IMO it's enough to make some (me) wonder whether something else was (is?) going on. 

By metmike - Sept. 8, 2019, 12:28 p.m.
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I agree that his relationship with Putin seems strange but would we think that if everything he said for 2 years was viewed thru eyes that were not assuming that he had committed collusion with Russia and Putin got him elected?

Personally, I think that he recognizes the need to get along with Russia because their military objectives, power to impose them and willingness to do it make it imperative.  I know that sounds like a defense of Trump but its just common sense based on realities that I knew with Obama and previous. 

You lived thru the Cold War, the Bay of Pigs(the days of bomb shelters and us kids thinking thats how the world would end) and the breakthru afterwards. The worst thing that I can imagine to our country...........the worst is for us to go back to those days. We and they have the power to annihilate each other 100 times over. We should be grateful for at least no confrontations between Trump and Russia..interpreted as Trump being Putins puppet-but I think Trump knows the facts above.

By pj - Sept. 8, 2019, 1:48 p.m.
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"I agree that his relationship with Putin seems strange but would we think that if everything he said for 2 years was viewed thru eyes that were not assuming that he had committed collusion with Russia and Putin got him elected."

I don't think Putin got him elected and it seems any collusion attempts never came to fruition, but it still seems mighty strange to me, as does the bromance with Kim. If not, sinister which I wouldn't bet on, at the least naive.

By metmike - Sept. 8, 2019, 4:04 p.m.
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He went from mortal enemy of Kim, ready to blow him to pieces to................friend.

What's so strange about that (-:

Trump is definitely unstable but no doubt, the relationship exists in that form because Trump has an ulterior motive that he thinks will benefit the US. 

I suspect peace with Russia plays into his bromance with Russia, how would it not. If there's something more than that.................the 2.5 year investigation.........unprecedented in fact couldn't find it and  I'm thrilled about the peace with Russia objective that seems like a no brainer accomplishment of his(which has been spun into him being Putins puppet or having a nefarious relationship).

Has any other person been so investigated like he was with Russia in the history of our country?

I feel pretty comfortable in saying that you have nothing to worry about there pj.

By pj - Sept. 8, 2019, 8:33 p.m.
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"... the relationship exists in that form because Trump has an ulterior motive that he thinks will benefit the US."

You repeatedly demonstrate more faith in Trump, how and why he operates, than I  think his words and actions warrant... guess we'll have to respectfully disagree.


By metmike - Sept. 8, 2019, 9:52 p.m.
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Thanks pj!

It's great to have you back. Stick around.

By TimNew - Sept. 9, 2019, 7:41 a.m.
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His actions?

"There's never been a president as tough on Russia as I have been," Trump told reporters on Wednesday. 


That might sound like hyperbole, but in this case, there's actually some basis for the president's boast.


"When you actually look at the substance of what this administration has done, not the rhetoric but the substance, this administration has been much tougher on Russia than any in the post-Cold War era," said Daniel Vajdich, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.