If you, joj or joj’s son were the ones that Trump was using to fighti in this latest, in the never ending battles that others want fought in the Middle East, would you still have suddenly changed your position on US military intervention?
War mongers can often justify risking the lives of other people and their loved ones as just pawns in a strategic battle for whatever the cause de jour is in the Middle East.
Of course this is Trumps fault right?
Would I send my own child is a strong (and emotional) metric to base military and foreign affairs policy. I've never been faced with that. But I acknowledge that many of our troubles in foreign military debacles come from policy makers and politicians, who themselves, were "chickenhawks". Bush and Cheney avoided fighting in Vietnam and went into Iraq like a Bull in a China shop, whereas Powell, who did serve in battle, was hesitant, advising Bush that "If you break it, you bought it."
Ponder this: Since 2014 Kurdish forces have lost more than 10,000 forces dead and more than 20,000 wounded fighting ISIS in Syria and the US has lost less than 10 soldiers! Does loyalty to the Kurds mean nothing? Does the US word mean nothing? I'm ok with pulling completely out of Afghanistan. Our allies there are corrupt and it has been a hopeless wasteland throughout history.
I think this situation is different. I also blame Obama for not implementing a no fly zone to protect the 100s of thousands of Syrian civilians that Syria (Assad) and Russia (Putin) massacred. This move by Trump benefits Syria, Russia and Iran. I think it is a mistake.
So you agree that most of our affairs over there have been debacles but on THIS ONE, we have the justification to continue military intervention.
I say, you and me:
1. Are not given the accurate assessment of what's going on because we are constantly fed propaganda, especially in the Middle East to support whatever actions the gatekeepers want to take. Can you say Iraq War. They can't even give us the right information about 1 phone call to Ukraine for Pete's sake(they lied about when they got the complaint and make up a story about what was said as part of the propaganda...........and we have the documentation to verify that-you think they will tell the Truth in the Middle East?)
2. Are aware of almost every single military intervention failing miserably for 6 decades.
3. Are aware of war in the Middle East being a way of life for people over there. We are not ever going to convert them to our belief system and be able to control them, other than temporary situations where we have to kill the bad guys, while getting(what you think is reasonable this time) some of our good guys killed.
4. Don't have any personal "skin in the game" . Easy for us to decide its ok for somebody else's loved ones die for what we think is a just cause.
5. The US is not the only country in the world. We are on the other side of the planet. I am for assisting other countries with humanitarian aid to save lives. We have more than we need and can afford to be more generous in this venue........but that doesn't apply to the lives of our brave soldiers or money/resources to kill people for political strategies. I am not for the US leading the way in venues like this.
6. This is part of the agenda that Trump ran on in 2016. .....pulling out of the Middle East. He is doing exactly as he promised(thank God). The republicans really don't like this particular move by Trump but this is one area that he has been consistently anti Republican on and the voters picked him over somebody like Ted Cruz and Hillary Clinton because of agenda like this.
I am not sure what level of pulling out is appropriate because none of us is privy to the specific dynamics(and neither is the MSM) but for me, the LESS presence we have over there the better.
I am not saying NO intervention or actions or military assistance. Just raise the bar much higher for standards in which we get involved.
Putin's puppet 45 saved his income from Trump Towers in Istanbul.
BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS TRUMP!!
Civilians being bombarded by the Turkish Air Force.
Sometimes military intervention is destabilizing. In this case the removal of a small US force was destabilizing.
Trump adds salt into the wounds by calling civilians “terrorists”. I would be banned from MF for life if I said what I really thought of Trump.
Pretty funny. Where was your Trump bashing for 3 years when Trump promised to do this and got elected on his promises? This was his anti Republican promise but of course, we know the democrats have to reverse their previous position on military intervention in the Middle East because it used to line up with Trump's agenda.
A year ago, the media marked him as only partially fulfilling this promise on this because he hadn't withdrawn enough troops yet.
Before: Mr Trump has long called for the US to leave the Middle East. On the campaign trail, he said the region was a "total and complete mess" and wished the government had spent the trillions of dollars in the US instead.
His talk of an end to US military deployments overseas predates his presidential run. In 2013, he tweeted: "Our troops are being killed by the Afghanis we train and we waste billions there. Nonsense! Rebuild the USA." That same year, he said the US should "stay the hell out" of the Syrian war.
After: In September 2017, the Trump administration announced the deployment of 3,000 additional troops to Afghanistan. Mr Trump said his approach would be based on conditions on the ground. In Syria, the US had led a coalition against IS along with Syrian Kurdish and Arab fighters, with around 2,000 troops on the ground.
By December 2018, Mr Trump ordered the withdrawal of all US troops from Syria. Days later, US media reported the president planned to halve US forces in Afghanistan from 14,000 to 7,000.
The plans prompted warnings from senior Republicans and foreign powers that it could help the resurgence of IS. In Afghanistan, experts cautioned a US withdrawal would be a propaganda victory for the Taliban.
After Mr Trump's decision, Defence Secretary Jim Mattis and special envoy to the coalition against IS Brett McGurk both resigned."
metmike: You guys are bashing Trump for the exact reason that most people, tired of the Military Industrial complex and swamp..........voted for him.
Maybe you should stick to his weaknesses, like his character and personality flaws, volatility and impulsive tweets because his agenda is his strong point. At least personality stuff is reality based.
Yeah, I know the MSM is giving you plenty of ammo and you can't resist.
It’s not his personality flaws that are his weakness.
It’s not his constant lying.
It’s not that he’s a confessed rapist.
It’s not his unprecedented corruption.
It’s not all the promises he has BROKEN.
It’s that he’s a complete moron with zero intellectual curiosity and a complete inability to learn on the job.
You are capable of rational, intelligent and objective thinking most of the time.
You shouldn't let hate affect you this way. It's extraordinarily self destructive and causes people to do things like change their political and other views and even who they are to justify hating another person. It can mess up relationships.
What's ironic, is the target of your hatred is not being damaged by your hatred, only you are. Like I told you in a personal email last month, I like you. It's sad to see you this way.
Please read my post on Hate. Maybe it will help you.
Thanks for you patronizing and condescending public message to me about hate.
I don't hate Trump. I just want him to go back to cheating people in Real estate and stop degrading the office of the presidency.
His latest quote of limited intelligence: "The Kurds didn't help us in Normandy." You can't make this stuff up. No one would believe you.
I predict in the end he will even turn on his loyal supporters as being unworthy of his greatness.
I don't think anyone will debate that Trump is a bloviating blowhard. But the current debate is over the withdrawal of 1,000 US troops.
"Thanks for you patronizing and condescending public message to me about hate."
I figured it would read that way but sent it anyway.
When you send hate gushing posts like that previous one, you leave me several options and none of them good.
1. I can ignore it and have others think that this is ok here by not addressing it. One of the messages I want to come out of MarketForum is love, helping others, truth, exposing fake news and the climate crisis scam. so option #1 is a no.
2. I can confront you and even warn you that this type of post is the opposite of what is going to define MarketForum if I'm going to stick around(or if you want to stick around). If you want to just post anti Trump stuff and stop posting your terrific market and other stuff, that's your choice and I will not take it personal but I'm also moderator here and have to do what's best. Traffic is not best if its just trolling and Trump bashing.
3. I can call you out on the hatred and offer insight(which is what I do) Spare me the "I don't hate Trump"bull. I'm not Tim who will get into a debate on it with you. This was my choice.
I'm an objective scientist who has been fascinated(and saddened) actually by the dynamics of this hate and how its destroying people and this country. I've spent numerous hours studying it and the psychology of it, as well as other fields of social science, especially as they relate to how propaganda is being used to sell a fake climate crisis.
You hate Trump, whether you want to admit it or not.
But your denial is exactly what makes this especially fascinating. We have millions just like you, that are letting their emotions over Trump affect things like relationships and political views and previous objectivity.............and claiming that they don't hate Trump. If they didn't hate Trump, then what is the emotion which is causing them to act in this negative way?
Only hate can cause this and this is exactly what hate does to people. Exactly.
I will add once again that Trump IS responsible for alot of it. He is the easy to hate guy, the target. He is mean and his character fits much of your descriptions.
But the main instigators and perpetrators are the MSM with the democrats who are using his character flaws, combined with manufactured facts/lies, spinning of news and biased reporting(half of the MSM consists of progressive activists) to proliferate hate(of Trump) on a monumental scale never seen before.............in order to destroy Trump.
And it's working to destroy him. None of it would be working or tolerated if this was Obama or any other president in history. The reason its working is because Trump is such an easy to hate guy, we all feel like he deserves that he gets..........even if what he is getting with the scheme to destroy him is a continual frame job(can you say Mueller investigation!)
I am able to show the lies for instance(by Schiff) or the fake news by the MSM and expose them and their progaganda with documents, facts and truths and show how its clearly connected with the hatred but this is just one tiny place which won't make much difference, other than a few people seeing the results of my objective research, as a scientist on this and the fake climate crisis.
Those that hate Trump, will view me as a Trump apologist rather than confront their hate. That's their choice.
I was an Obama apologist too, based on the republican views( I voted for Obama in 2008 and was a far left liberal for the first half of my life and still maintain some of those old school dem principles/values.
The only reason to show this, is because of the stereotype out there of anybody that supports Trump. We aren't objective. Scientists, the vast majority who are liberal to strongly liberal couldn't support Trump. We hated and bashed Obama!
Well here you go folks, I'm an objective scientist, Obama apologist non Republican that deals with facts and sincerely would like others to see and contemplate what is really causing the catastrophic hatred of Trump.
"...the current debate is over the withdrawal of 1,000 US troops."
If we were talking about 50,000 troops I'd be more inclined to say we have to get out of there.
That is sort of how I feel about Afghanistan. Obama listened to his generals and upped Bush's war to over 100,000 US troops even though the history of that country is filled with failed empires' invasions. That was a mistake.
Here we are talking about a small force of US soldiers withstanding minimal casualties over the past 5 years, but effectively acting as a deterrent to the Turkish military attacking our ally who helped depose Saddam and helped reduce the threat of ISIS. (Not to mention the possible humanitarian crisis that may yet unfold)
When Bush invaded Iraq, that was destabilizing. So is this withdrawal.
I supported Trump not escalating hostilities with N. Korea (although I wish we had allies to help us with that thorny situation).
I supported Trump signing the criminal reform bill.
I supported Trump for calling back the bombing mission in retaliation for Iran's misdeeds.
I did this publicly on MF.
But that doesn't count I guess because any disagreement I have with him and his abysmal record is just proof that I hate him and am biased against him.
Please name all the POLICIES he has implemented that you have publicly been critical of on this forum because I think I missed them all.
"Please name all the POLICIES he has implemented that you have publicly been critical of on this forum because I think I missed them all."
Let me help. This one was from 3 days ago and your post was the very next one after mine:
By metmike - Oct. 7, 2019, 5:38 p.m.
metmike: As an environmentalist, I oppose Trumps politics here to win over the farm voting block. Having numerous farmer friends, I completely understand why agriculture views this in one sided fashion and positive. If I was a producer, I would feel the same way.
1. In case you didn't notice, the only reason that I am for Trump is because of his pro American agenda and I agree with almost all of it.
2. You accused me of bashing Obama, then insisted too and I showed you that was made up.
3. I am not going to take this into the realm of silly bickering that turns into personal attacks. My job as moderator is to monitor posting. I recognize blatant hatred in your posting about Trump. My sincere objective as a human being is to confront the hatred. You deny the hatred.................that's fine with me but as moderator and a human being I will address it in the best way that I know.
4. You are extremely intelligent and knowledgeable in many areas, I like you personally and you have made plenty of positive contributions in the past. I am obviously allowing you and cliff to act like trolls with Trump bashing. At least yours sometimes come with thought............along with some potent hateful, personal venum vs cliffs. They are clearly not intended for some sort of discussion. They are entirely aimed at upsetting those that you disagree with here.
So I encourage you, instead of letting your hatred for Trump take all of your attention, to going back to making more market related posts but completely understand that we are having an impeachment of the president, so I am basically not going to enforce any standards on Trump bashing, other than please don't make personal attacks on individual posters.
"...the current debate is over the withdrawal of 1,000 US troops."
I need to understand how 1,000 US troops will make or break the region/Kurdish forces.
Seem like once again, much ado about nothing, or more apt, one more excuse, in a steaming pile of excuses.
Happy to explain it to you Tim.
Turkey dare not attack when 1000 US forces are in the way. That would bring on the wrath of the greatest military power even known to man. But once removed.... (and this has ALREADY happened!) .... Turkish military begins attacking our ally.
Oh? We still have troops there. They haven't all left yet. And you seem to think this is the 1st attack since the US got involved... It's not.