Socialized Medicine
31 responses | 0 likes
Started by GunterK - Feb. 11, 2021, 10:15 a.m.

Socialized medicine… a controversial subject

As we all know, the USA does not have a good healthcare program. Many elderly see their life-savings wiped out by medical bills.

Obamacare had its flaws, and Trump has not come up with anything better. However, Pres Trump did reduce the cost of prescription drugs significantly.

Pres Biden immediately reversed Trump’s Executive Order, on his first day in the WH.

Here is a 24-old man, who just graduated from college, with not much income. He is suffering from Type1 Diabetes. The cost for his meds is now jumping to $2,000/month. Without the insulin, he will die.

In other words, Biden’s order is a death sentence for him.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1359411376687624202

Some people speculate that Biden’s move is intended to make the People suffer, so that he can introduce socialized medicine.

Socialized medicine does sound good. metmike has repeatedly written about it. I myself grew up in Germany, and I have to say, yes, it’s great. You get sick, you go to the doctor or the hospital. Your tooth hurts, you go to the dentist.. and you never worry about money.

Socialized medicine has not turned Germany into a country like Venezuela.

Not long ago, I spoke to my friend in Germany and asked him about this subject. He explained how it’s done.

A high-wage earner in Germany pays a total of 55% tax on his income. If he runs a small business (like an S-Corp in the US), his total income tax will be 80%

I was shocked to hear this. but he said everybody is satisfied with it.

I wonder how many small businesses could survive such a tax burden.

Comments
By bear - Feb. 12, 2021, 9:11 a.m.
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here is what it boils down to...

would you rather have individuals go bankrupt?  or have the whole country go bankrupt? 

i am honest enough to say that i would rather have individuals go bankrupt, and i do Not want our country to go bankrupt.  

when a country goes bankrupt, most people on average will be worse off.  that is what you get with too much socialism.  

with capitalism, individuals go bankrupt, but most people will be far better off on average. 

people who want more socialism do Not understand that they are pushing for the country to go bankrupt.  

libs will bankrupt us with too much social spending. pubs will bankrupt us with too much military spending. 

By bear - Feb. 12, 2021, 9:20 a.m.
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btw,... the cost of medicine going up like a rocket has been a direct result of the ACA.  which is a policy biden whole heartedly supported.  

sorry,  but people who supported obamacare are not bright enough to understand the really bad side effects of that policy.  

take my daughters birth control pills as an example.  before the ACA they were 30 bucks per month (without insurance).  now those same pills are 140 bucks per month (without insurance).  the ACA said you have to buy insurance,  and the insurance Has to cover birth control  so the company that makes the pills can just keep raising prices (a Lot) year after year.  

if there were No ACA, and you could buy those pills over the counter, without a prescription, they would be 10 bucks per month... not much more than a bottle of tylenol.  

less govt involvement, and the cost is much lower.  more govt involvement, and the cost is higher.   yet, libs are convinced that More govt involvement is good.  

i think everyone would be better off with LESS govt involvement, and the pills are only 10 bucks.  

By bear - Feb. 12, 2021, 9:25 a.m.
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as far as venezuela... by the year 2070,  most of europe will look like argentina.  with a much lower standard of living.  and they will have 30% inflation and 30% unemployment.  maybe worse.

if you read armstrong, all the central bankers in europe know their economies are on the verge of collapse.  they do NOT know what to do.  their policies are failing.  but they will not publicly admit to this.  there will be No growth in europe in the future.  only stagnation.  

the rising inflation and rising unemployment will cause rising social unrest.  

By TimNew - Feb. 12, 2021, 10:51 a.m.
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I've always thought this is a good analogy.

Imagine oil changes were covered by auto insurance. With all the additional work involved,  there'd be in network and out of network oil changers,   lots of regulations on what types and brands of oil are covered,  heavy restrictions on when and how the oil is changed.  Both auto insurance and oil changes would be far more expensive.

I'll be the first to admit that Socilaized Medicine has a lot of advanatges over what we currently have,  but that's only after decades of government srewing it up.  Less government, not more, is the solution.


By wglassfo - Feb. 12, 2021, 5:34 p.m.
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Hi Bear

You tell us Europe will be in trouble in 50 yrs

Any reason to think the USA won't also have the same problem in 50 yrs. So far the Fed does not have many good answers except more of the same, plus fund Biden's Green Deal. How will you folks manage with out fossil fuel???

At least Europe will have socialized health care, even if they do fail, same as all western society

I don't think European health care is the reason, if Europe fails

Mean while the USA has an equal chance of failure with the same central bankers not knowing what to do, but the difference is you could go BK in the USA, with hospital bills. I would choose not going BK. My insulin costs me zero

The entire western world central bankers don't know what to do, except more of the same

Medical is not the problem you think it is

I dunno,  what would the cost of the next aircraft carrier and shield of destroyers pay for in social medical cost

Maybe forget for ever wars and pay more attention to medical problems would be helpful

Also billions sent to foreign countries for no good reason [that I know of and lots of others agree] might be better spent on local medical problems

The central banker actions will decide much more

Also allocation of funds might help a bit

By metmike - Feb. 12, 2021, 7:09 p.m.
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Here are some recent threads on this wonderful topic (thanks Gunter) with some excellent points:


                Signs of things to come            

                            16 responses |    

                Started by wglassfo - July 24, 2020, 6:01 p.m.      

      https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/56713/


Corruption causing our health care system to collapse            

                            13 responses |               

                Started by metmike - Oct. 16, 2019, 12:05 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/41122/



just a minute bear and i think i can save your daughter and everybody else a ton of money on their meds.......next page.

By GunterK - Feb. 12, 2021, 7:16 p.m.
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bear wrote; ".... by the year 2070,  most of europe will look like argentina. "

My guess is, by 2070, or much earlier, Europe will be called ISE... Islamic State of Europe.

and from what i have heard about their state in the ME, they don't have much of a healthcare program.

By metmike - Feb. 12, 2021, 7:25 p.m.
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https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/58334/#58345


                By metmike - Aug. 29, 2020, 10:13 p.m.            

            

I completely trust this source. They are saving me a ton of money right now and saving Americans billions by getting us the lowest prices on most drugs by using their coupons.


5 Ways to Really Fix High Drug Prices

https://www.goodrx.com/blog/5-ways-to-really-fix-high-drug-prices/

           


     Save money on prescriptions            

                            6 responses |             

                Started by metmike - Aug. 15, 2020, 12:22 a.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/57647/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


so bear and everyone else, this is what you do. The savings are unbelievable and available to EVERYONE!


"This is legit.

I've been using it recently to save tons of money on drug prescriptions. 


Type in the name of your med, along with the information about it(quantity/dose) and see how much you will pay using the coupon that you will print out and give to your pharmacy.


If its more than what you pay...............do nothing. You must have pretty good insurance.


If it's less than what you pay............call your pharmacy to make sure that they will take it(they should)  and confirm the price.  Print out the coupon, give it to the pharmacy and save  big bucks."

Sams does not take the coupons but most others do.



Click to return to GoodRx homepage


Stop paying too much for your prescriptions

https://www.goodrx.com/



bear, 

what pharmacy do you use?

It really doesn't matter because you can take the prescription to the pharmacy of your choice. What is the name of the prescription, dose and amount?


By TimNew - Feb. 12, 2021, 8:03 p.m.
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No Comments on my analogy.  Geuss you guys just don't get it..     Oh Well.

By metmike - Feb. 12, 2021, 8:52 p.m.
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"No Comments on my analogy.  Guess you guys just don't get it..     Oh Well."

Thanks Tim, appreciate the comments. 

Since you are asking for a specific comment to this, you are right that I don't get it.

"Imagine oil changes were covered by auto insurance. With all the additional work involved,  there'd be in network and out of network oil changers,   lots of regulations on what types and brands of oil are covered,  heavy restrictions on when and how the oil is changed.  Both auto insurance and oil changes would be far more expensive."

You are using a physical product that people purchase and making an analogy to something in a completely different realm..............protection for a future unforeseen situation. 

It's like you are comparing apples to......................something that is not even a food product.


If youcompare auto insurance to health insurance, in which case health insurance looks really bad but even there, I think that the comparison is apples to oranges. 

Oil changes are needed for regular maintenance for instance. Most major medical costs are not regular maintainance. You can't doctor shop or hospital shop to get the best deal. This is why applying market forces that use demand/supply and other things that help to control price with capitalism/the free market are not working with healthcare.

With car insurance, you can do lots of shopping around to get the best deal, so car insurance companies must stay competitive or they will price themselves out of the market. 

Corruption by the FDA and all the other entities, including the politicians so that they are allowed to price gouge the consumer can only be reigned in with govnerment controls. The free market, obviously has totally failed.

Obamacare was a huge failure too because it was the wrong application of government. It caused prices to go higher because the politicians making the decisions, did not impose price/cost control measures that were needed. They failed to do that because the lobby money/kickbacks that enriched them were more important than helping ALL Americans. 

The pharmaceutical industry has the FDA and politicians in their back, front and side pockets.

The politicians have successfully blamed the health insurance industry for all of it.


Private health insurance could actually work well in tandem with strict government regulations with price controls.  But you would still need government. The politicians will NEVER do it under any system that allows them to enrich themselves or that offers them more power. That is all the majority of them  seem to care about based on their (lack of) actions.

By bear - Feb. 12, 2021, 11:05 p.m.
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something like goodrx may help with a prescription,  but it does not help at all with the skyrocketing price of the health insurance plans. 

i have talked to folks who paid 350 per month for a family of 4 (back in 2006,2007, etc).  that was for a good policy and a reasonable deductible.

the same policy today would be 1800 per month , but with worse coverage.  and a person with a lower income, who gets govt help will still pay 600 per month.   

with the ACA today you have horrible coverage, with a sky high deductible.  this is NOT good coverage, OR affordable.  it IS a massive handout to the insurance industry.  thats it period.

the ACA is primarily a corporate handout,  but provide horrible coverage to the masses. 

we are currently on the ACA.  coverage is incredibly expensive. the coverage is horrible.  deductible is sky high.

next year we are simply going to get a catastrophic plan outside of the ACA.  

By bear - Feb. 12, 2021, 11:17 p.m.
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btw... yes, by 2070, the usa will also have 30% unemployment, and 30% inflation just like argentina today.  currently europe is worse off than the usa.  

 the general problem for all the western world is too much debt, too much bureaucracy, too much military over-expansion,  too much socialism.  all these things contribute to currency debasement,  which leads to long term decline.  

the only way to keep america strong as a world economic power for another 100 years is to keep taxes low, reduce govt spending dramatically, return to a gold standard,  reduce social programs. 

getting rid of the fed would help. 

the big question is whether a place like europe, or the usa, can hang together during this long term decline.  or will they get torn apart by uprisings?  

By bear - Feb. 12, 2021, 11:21 p.m.
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gunter, i talked to a fellow in holland who said their tax rate was about 75%.  No, he was not satisfied with that, but seemed resigned to the fact that there is no way to change that. too many voters love high taxes and massive amounts of socialism in europe.  

By GunterK - Feb. 13, 2021, 1:07 a.m.
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you wrote: "...the only way to keep america strong as a world economic power for another 100 years is to keep taxes low, reduce govt spending dramatically, return to a gold standard,  reduce social programs. ...."

reduce social programs????

Last May, a man died during a police arrest ... and cities across the country went up in flames. What do you think would happen, if you took away their welfare checks? 

This science fiction hasn't movie hasn't been made yet... it would be a good one.

However, your comments about a "strong" America are quite correct. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this will happen. 

What has made the USA strong during the past is being slowly dismantled. We are living in a new kind of society now... the media tells us what to think... freedom of speech is disappearing... dissidents are being persecuted... the government is aiming to controll our lives totally (with lockdowns and forced vaccinations).

And this movie has already been made.... "1984"






By TimNew - Feb. 13, 2021, 4:08 a.m.
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Apples to ......  Apples.


Market forces are market forces,  supply and demand are supply and demand, no matter what the product and no matter what lofty terms you prefer to give medical care.   But if I have to explain why a complete government takeover of medical care, bureaucracy and regulations, will NOT reduce costs, I'm probably wasting my time.

How about this?   

Do you think stealing, where you take something from someone else that doesn't belong to you,  is ok?

Do you think slavery, where you make someone perform a service for you for free, is OK?

If you support socialized medicine,  you support one or both of the above.  So I guess you think they are OK as long as you don't have to worry about your medical care.

Another thing..  The countries with socialized medicine contribute almost nothing, when compared to the US, to medical innovation and advancement.  They don't have the money to do it and they all look to us for the most part. Not only that,  their rich come here for medical procedures that they prefer to get here or can't get there.  So, if we go with socialized medicine, the entire world will see a drought in medical advancement, which has been moving at a blinding rate of late.   But,  maybe medicine is good enough just like it is,  and at least you won't have to worry about paying for your medical care,  sorta,  such as it will be. 


BTW,  Oil changes are expected expenses,  just like 90+% of our medical care,  Checkups,  pregnancies,  dental care,  the list goes on.   How many medical decisions have you made from the back of an ambulance?   That's about the only time you don't get much of a choice.   The rest of the time,  you can make an informed decision.

By metmike - Feb. 13, 2021, 12:59 p.m.
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Tim,

Your bias because of your profession is gushing out with statements that are the complete opposite of the reality. 


Tim: "Oil changes are expected expenses,  just like 90+% of our medical care,  Checkups,  pregnancies,  dental care,  the list goes on.   How many medical decisions have you made from the back of an ambulance?   That's about the only time you don't get much of a choice.   The rest of the time,  you can make an informed decision."

metmike: more like 90+% of medical care expenses DON'T allow us much if any choice. There is no market competition or opportunity to lock in cheaper prices. We pay what the provider charges for the.................MRI, Cat Scan, procedure, doctor, hospital bed etc.

Here's proof by itself:

National Health Expenditures 2019 Highlights U.S. health care spending increased 4.6 percent to reach $3.8trillion,or $11,582 per person

https://www.cms.gov/files/document/highlights.pdf

Hospital Care

(31 percent share): Spending for hospital care services increased at a faster rate in 2019 compared to 2018(6.2percent and 4.2 percent, respectively) and reached $1.2 trillion in 2019. Nonprice factors such as the use and intensity of services contributed to this steeper growth compared to previous years.Physician and Clinical Services(20 percent)

metmike: When was the last time you were in the hospital and they let  you decide on your treatments or charges? Do you transfer to another hospital because this hospital charges too much?  When you are in the hospital, its because you are really sick. Outside the hospital, when was the last time your family doctor let you pick the tests he/she say need to be done and price them out? Need a quadrupal bypass for blocked arteries? Let me check around with all the other cardiologists first doc, to see which one will do it the cheapest(you'll find the rates are often fixed/the same anyway based on the agreements to rip people off between the insurance company's and the provider)  Or your family dentist/dental hygentist. Do you call around the city to find the one that will clean your teeth for $25 less than the others?

Look at the data below. Healthcare costs are more than 100 times what they were in 1960. This is happening because providers and drug companies are price gouging with impunity, mainly charging PRIVATE health insurers the much higher rates. There is no free market. They charge whatever they can charge and the consumer is taken to lunch because there is no free market. In this environment ONLY price regulations will stop the prices from escalating. 

Healthcare Spending by Sector in 2015

By metmike - Feb. 13, 2021, 1:07 p.m.
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Tim: Do you think stealing, where you take something from someone else that doesn't belong to you,  is ok?

metmike: Applying that, means that paying most taxes is stealing by the government. Since we have not been paying for healthcare and this is an added burden, its unpleasant for those that already have nice healthcare plans like you do. However, since using the current system has resulted in healthcare costs going up by 10,000% since 1960 and most Americans can't afford private health insurance unless their employer pays the ripoff rates, government MUST step in to stop the insane increases. Medicare/caid costs are not going higher at the same rate because of the governments influence. Private health care rates do not have similar price controls.


Tim: Do you think slavery, where you make someone perform a service for you for free, is OK?


metmike: Slavery and making a person do things for free is wrong. Paying/rewarding them using reasonable standards is needed and fair.

By metmike - Feb. 13, 2021, 1:15 p.m.
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Tim: Another thing..  The countries with socialized medicine contribute almost nothing, when compared to the US, to medical innovation and advancement.  They don't have the money to do it and they all look to us for the most part.


metmike: Exactly! The US should not be forced to pay so much more than its fair share.,,,,3-10 times higher for the same drugs.  Other countries are cheaper because they control the prices. Its proof that it will work. We get price gouged because its allowed with our corrupt system geared to sock it to the consumer.


metmike: How is paying higher rates for hospitalization, the #1 cost contributing towards innovation?

https://truecostofhealthcare.org/hospital_financial_analysis/


6. The proportion of a hospital bill a private insurance company pays is substantially higher, on average, than the proportion Medicare or Medicaid pays, and that difference has grown steadily since 2000.

7. Private health insurance companies deliberately overpay hospitals to ensure that their revenues continue to grow each year.

8. Hospital costs per enrollee have been nearly static for Medicare and Medicaid recipients since 2008, whereas they’ve grown by more than 60% for the privately insured.


Taxpayers — not Big Pharma — have funded the research behind every new drug since 2010

https://other98.com/taxpayers-fund-pharma-research-development/

By metmike - Feb. 13, 2021, 1:27 p.m.
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Just look at how cheap you can get these drugs by using a good.rx coupon.

It shows what the massive, price gouging mark up is on most of these drugs. 

By TimNew - Feb. 13, 2021, 7:48 p.m.
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metmike: more like 90+% of medical care expenses DON'T allow us much if any choice.
There is no market competition or opportunity to lock in cheaper prices.
We pay what the provider charges for the.................MRI, Cat Scan, procedure, doctor, hospital bed etc.

TimNew:.   This is EXACTLY the point I am making.  The Price Transparency bill that Trump was working on would have made massive strides.  An MRI can cost between 600 and 3000.  My company finds the MRIs for 600.  More should.  The main problem we face is we have no idea what assorted treatments we need cost, which removes a major factor in free market price controls.  And yes,  90+% of the time,  given transparent pricing, which we lack,  we'd choose more reasonable costs. This would force the people overcharging to either lower prices or go out of business. I honestly can't believe I need to explain price dynamics on Market Forum.

metmike: Exactly! The US should not be forced to pay so much more than its fair share.,,,,3-10 times higher for
the same drugs.  Other counters are cheaper because they control the prices. Its proof that it will work.
We get price gouged because its allowed with our corrupt system geared to sock it to the consumer.

TimNew:  We get price gouged. See above.   And yet, somehow, the Free Market provides innovations every day, all around us, while reducing prices.  Socialized medicine would eliminate that, finally, completely. Again, I honestly can't believe I need to explain price dynamics on Market Forum.



metmike:Just look at how cheap you can get these drugs by using a good.rx coupon.


TimNew:  How do you think good.rx works?


Finally,  my profession as an IT guy in health care does not make me biased,  it makes me informed.  I know my company  spends millions of dollars a year on compliance.  MIllions!!, that do not go to patient care.  How do you suppose we could fix that?  Socialized medicine?     Don't make me laugh.  That's EXACTLY the wrong solution. Exactly why Obamacare drove up prices, but on a much more grand scale. And yes, forcing people to waste money on nonsense like that is a form of stealing/slavery.

  

 


By metmike - Feb. 13, 2021, 8:17 p.m.
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Thanks Tim,

"I honestly can't believe I need to explain price dynamics on Market Forum."

sorry Tim, belittling comments like that don't work with me. What works best and with  the rest of the world is.............if you have the proof, then use the statistics/studies, numbers/data and evidence vs saying that price dynamics always work....including  in a realm that is completely disconnected from classical market forces. 


I agree with you that Obamacare was the wrong solution and caused prices to go higher, partly for the good reason that you mentioned.

By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 1:04 a.m.
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By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 1:07 a.m.
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By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 1:11 a.m.
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List of countries by total health expenditure per capita


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita


By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 1:22 a.m.
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Small Business

Average Cost of Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance

Updated on January 11, 2021


https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/small-business/average-cost-of-employer-sponsored-health-insurance



By TimNew - Feb. 14, 2021, 6:01 a.m.
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That was not meant to be belittling,  I'm sorry you took it that way.  People keep trying to say this or that, including medical care,  does not work that way and they are exactly wrong.  Everything that's bought and sold works that way. Market forces determine price.  I am merely trying to stress the obvious.


If your argument about health care costs is the US is meant to support socialized medicine, refer to the above.

By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 11:39 a.m.
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Thanks Tim!

By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 11:51 a.m.
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Life Expectancy of the World Population

Out of 193 countries in the world, the USA comes in.................46th.

    https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

46United States79.1181.6576.61
By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 11:54 a.m.
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The Role of Health Care

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62376/

The U.S. health care system differs from the systems of other countries in a number of ways that could conceivably lead to differences in life expectancy. Social and health care policies are generally better integrated in the other countries considered here, for example, and access to health care is not as limited by the ability to pay. Health insurance is almost universal in Europe, Canada, Australia, and Japan, whereas 50.7 million people in the United States did not have health insurance in 2009

By metmike - Feb. 14, 2021, 12:05 p.m.
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My 95 year old dad has a wonderful quality of life at an assisted living facility in Detroit.

Quality of life and mortality in the general population: a systematic review and meta-analysis

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-09639-9

Furthermore, this study also adds further support to the predictive capacity of physical HRQoL for mortality risk. Additional research is needed to determine whether these associations differ across gender, and other populations in low- and lower-middle-income countries, who have suffered of a double burden of infectious and chronic diseases, with having difficulties for accessing quality health services. Ultimately these findings suggest the utility of QoL measures to help identify populations at greatest risk of mortality and who might benefit most from routine screening in general practice and possible interventions.

By TimNew - Feb. 15, 2021, 8:25 p.m.
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Our mortality rates are largely dictated by our excessive life styles.   has nothing to do with access to health care.   Take a walk through your local mall.  Check out the rate of obesity.  Nowe take a walke through a European mall, or a Japanese Mall,  or any dozens of other countries.  

We're fat and lazy because we're the richest per-capita in the world. Why is that?