Another Stossell Home Run. On censorship
29 responses | 0 likes
Started by TimNew - Oct. 9, 2021, 10:58 a.m.

A timely article and this one line sums up the entire argument against the slippery slope that is censorship.

"All of these battles are fought at the margin. That's where everything controversial is," responds Caruso. "By the time you're defending something mainstream, it's too late."


BEEReaucrats (townhall.com)

Comments
By metmike - Oct. 9, 2021, 12:01 p.m.
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Google, YouTube to prohibit ads and monetization on climate denial content

https://www.axios.com/google-youtube-climate-change-734f2b05-40e2-4e05-9100-39de589b3b0a.html

"Google and YouTube on Thursday announced a new policy that prohibits climate deniers from being able to monetize their content on its platforms via ads or creator payments. 

Why it matters: It's one of the most aggressive measures any major tech platform has taken to combat climate change misinformation.

Details: Google advertisers and publishers, as well as YouTube creators, will be prohibited from making ad revenue off content that contradicts "well-established scientific consensus around the existence and causes of climate change," the company's ads team said in a statement. 

  • "This includes content referring to climate change as a hoax or a scam, claims denying that long-term trends show the global climate is warming, and claims denying that greenhouse gas emissions or human activity contribute to climate change."
  • Ads and monetization will still be allowed to run alongside other climate-related topics, like public debates on climate policy, impacts of climate change, and new research around the issue.

Google said it's making these changes in response to frustration from advertisers and content creators about their messages appearing alongside climate denialism. 

  • "Advertisers simply don’t want their ads to appear next to this content. And publishers and creators don’t want ads promoting these claims to appear on their pages or videos," the company said. 

Yes, but: Google often makes changes to its ads policies to reduce misinformation, but this update is notable, given how hard it can be to characterize certain commentary about climate change as denialism or misinformation. 

  • The tech giant says that when evaluating content against the new policy, "we’ll look carefully at the context in which claims are made, differentiating between content that states a false claim as fact, versus content that reports on or discusses that claim."
  • The company says it has consulted with experts, like representatives of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Assessment Reports, to create the policy. The report found that there is "unequivocal" evidence showing that human emissions of greenhouse gases are causing global warming."
  • Google says it will use a combination of automated tools and human review to enforce the new policy. 

The big picture: Internet companies have been under increased pressure from climate activists to do more to address climate change denial on their platforms."


metmike: This is very interesting and I actually think that if we don't have blatant abuses of the policy, that it's a really good thing. There really is a serious problem with true climate deniers that claim there is NO global warming or that humans play NO role that totally mess it up for atmospheric scientists like metmike that show the realities.........of what the REAL warming are in the REAL world from the beneficial CO2.

People lump true deniers and climate realism from scientists like metmike in the same category because they don't understand climate science.

You basically have one side that believes EVERYTHING from their side because its coming from that side...............without applying science or critical thinking.

And the other side believes the exact opposite......and EVERYTHING from their side because it coming from that side.........without applying science or critical thinking.

I've spent the last 25 years scrutinizing all my work and opinions using the scientific method and basing everything on empirical data and authentic science. 

Criticism and disagreements of my work/opinions are always my favorites. I can either show the proof or, if not able to do that..........learn something new. 

However, if somebody came here and in several months, made 200 posts that disagreed with me and used junk science from really bad or cherry picked sources or anomalies and completely ignored my proof every time but had the sole  objective of just trying to convince people here who thought like them to believe their junk science.........then I would try to get them to stop doing that with numerous warnings, along with showing them the authentic science each time ...........in hopes that they would open their minds to the truth and not try to pollute the forum with constant lies.

Everybody has the right to the wrong opinion and they can voice that repeatedly here......... but after 200 times of obsessively and neurotically posting the WRONG opinion in the face of many dozens of  patient corrections with the truth/facts.....that it becomes clear that this person is here with a mission that is completely the opposite of why MarketForum exists and is sabotaging those efforts.

Everybody has the right to the truth and MarketForums top priority is to deliver the fact/science based truth. Not everybody will except that..........which is fine but people that intentionally sabotage our effort to deliver the truth with hundreds of posts over a period of many months...........will be given countless opportunities to stop doing it if they are contributors in other realms. 

A clear thinking person that is on board with our mission here would quickly appreciate this.

A mind captured by propaganda and false narratives/rhetoric that is manufactured for political reason, sadly is unable to think or post the truth clearly and resulted in Gunter repeatedly violating and disrespecting my pleading for him to open his mind and stop trying to pollute other minds here. 

Back to the original topic.

There are people just like Gunter in climate science that refuse to believe the planet is warming and refuse to acknowledge that humans are having an affect and refuse to acknowledge the 100% proven physics of greenhouse gas warming caused by CO2.

When these people neurotically post their constant anti science bs they actually do the most harm to people on that side, who KNOW they are wrong but want people to know the truth about how the  many exaggerations used to create a  fake climate crisis that ignores the massive benefits.

How do we filter information so that it represents authentic science?

We shall see.

It's likely to cause some problems because of several items accepted as mainstream climate science based on bad science from the IPCC and UN........that ever body accepts.

We will see. 

I am for authentic science, truth, empirical data and evidence to get the most weighting..........yes, even greater weighting than people's right to tell and spread lies. ........because the right to tell lies is  stealing the intelligence of tens of millions of Americans right now in several realms.

We have to do something to stop this. 

I would be interested in hearing why people think that spreading clear lies for political agenda is a good thing. 

No, not a difference in opinion, where both sides have an equally legit case to be right.

When one side has all the authentic data/science on their side and the other side has manufactured a convincing sounding lie.

Why would this be acceptable?

It doesn't matter if YOU believe in the lie. That doesn't mean its acceptable.

Yeah, I know that the concern is that the entities determining what is a lie and what is not a lie will be biased. That is probably true but to be quite honest, almost everything they've decided is a lie, at this point...........was in fact a lie.







By metmike - Oct. 9, 2021, 12:08 p.m.
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Some of the biggest lies  in just the last year, that many tens of millions of Americans actually believe because they were not censored have been:

1. The election was stolen from Trump

2. The vaccine kills more people than COVID

3. Humans have not caused any global warming

There have been several others but I am STRONGLY FOR censoring posts/statements trying to push that crap on people. 

By TimNew - Oct. 9, 2021, 12:42 p.m.
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This is very interesting and I actually think that if we don't have blatant abuses of the policy, that it's a really good thing.


MM,  thanks for providing a perfect example of the flawed thinking that supports censorship.  "Blatant Abuse" is a VERY subjective iidea/concept.   It's just swell if the person defining "blatant abuse" agrees with you on everything, but ya know what?   They probably won't   And history shows us over and over that the person(s) defining it continue to expand the definition until almost nothing is acceptable, outside of a very narrow scope.  You know what also happens?    Punishment for infractions grow steadily more severe.


So   while you are cheering this sort of thing on,  please be aware of just what you are cheering.

By metmike - Oct. 9, 2021, 12:54 p.m.
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People have the right to have their intelligence stolen and be brainwashed by lies and propaganda right?

Just look around.

The evidence of the real world is what I refer to. Many tens, if not  100 million damaged people already in that group because of lies and propaganda. 

These are just 3 examples............in the REAL world.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75944/#75947




Your case is based on the potential, theoretical abuse. Do you have comparable damage and numbers/examples that show serious damage from excessive censorship?

Not potential, speculative in the future at some impossible to pinpoint time but REAL world damage please.



By TimNew - Oct. 9, 2021, 1:06 p.m.
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Your case is based on the potential, theoretical abuse. Do you have comparable damage and numbers/examples that show serious damage from excessive censorship?

Not potential, speculative in the future at some impossible to pinpoint time but REAL world damage please.


You're kidding me right?   Are you saying you've never read a history book?

Usually,  when you start seeing censorship,  you see lots of other things too.  Government nibbling around the edges of rights.   Taking control of property.   And as that control increases,  voices to protest it are silenced with the increased ability to censor.

If you seriously need specific examples from history,  I'll provide them,  but why do you suppose the founders made the 1st amendment the 1st one?   History prior to, and since the wrting of the constitution provide ample reasons.



By metmike - Oct. 9, 2021, 1:08 p.m.
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In case those recent 3 DEAD WRONG, conspiracy theory type beliefs that have completely taken over the belief's of many million are not enough..........here's another 36 of them to convince you that.........earth to Houston, we have a major problem here with complete bs and the power of the internet in delivering it in convincing fashion  to steal peoples intelligence is the biggest contributor.


36 of the most popular conspiracy theories in the US

https://www.insider.com/popular-conspiracy-theories-united-states-2019-5


I prefer to live in a country with a well educated people who base their knowledge on solid principles, science and proven facts not a bunch of gullible, brainwashed people that follow crazy, speculative, sensationalized propaganda from crap sources.

Even if the ones having their intelligence stolen, object the strongest to not being allowed to have their intelligence stolen..........which is always the way it will be...........ALWAYS by definition.

That's because the crap that is censored will always get the people who believe in the crap the most upset.


By metmike - Oct. 9, 2021, 1:12 p.m.
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Please, Just show the examples HERE in this country that apply to THIS case, so that we can compare them to the 39 REAL world cases above  in the right now America to see who's is bigger.


Empirical data/facts always gets more weighting than speculation and theories.

By metmike - Oct. 9, 2021, 2:58 p.m.
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Here are a few more of the REAL world examples of  crazy conspiracy theories that we've had polluting the brains of MarketForum posters.


https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75431/#75520


Again, the ones objecting to this being censored are the ones that believe in them/it.

Please correct me with  why this is flawed reasoning.

Again, I am actually for proper censuring of  climate science deniers to get rid of the ones that are recking it for the legit skeptics that are using authentic science.......because they are providing MIS/DISinformation about climate science.

My authentic science and data has been saved and documented for everybody.

Maybe there are a couple of items that could use adjusting?

Great, point them out and I'll look at it objectively. 


                Climate Reality discussions-new discussion August 2021            

                            Started by metmike - April 15, 2019, 4:10 p.m.        

    https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/27864/

By TimNew - Oct. 9, 2021, 9:28 p.m.
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Once again MM,  you are being willfully ignorant.  I can't educate the eagerlly ignorant.   It's a waste of time.

Your argument "We're not seeing censorship like what we saw in NAZI Germany so it's stupid to talk about it".. 

And the point I made is that when you wait until it's like NAZI Germany,  it's way too late.   But people like you don't get that.   They didn't then either,  until they were carted off to gas chambers.      

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 4:55 a.m.
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Once again MM,  you are being willfully ignorant.  I can't educate the eagerlly ignorant.   It's a waste of time.

So instead of responding with your own facts, as I nicely and respectfully asked you for with a please.... you respond to mine by calling me ignorant.

You will note that I’m not calling you names Tim and not attacking you back.


By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 5:14 a.m.
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You don’t even realize that the  targets buying into all this disinformation And the conspiracy theories .......that pass them on to others....who pass them on to even more people, that keep passing on all this dis/misinformatiare are the ones rejecting the censorship and the ones that I sincerely want to help.

Everybody has the right to know the truth.

They should be able to exercise their freedom to choose things based on being given the objective truths which define it......not get manufactured, false realities intended to twist their minds into following nafarious sources that have self serving and political underlying motives.

Would you not agree with that, Tim?

We both want the same thing.

By TimNew - Oct. 10, 2021, 6:57 a.m.
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Asking for facts on this , to me at least, amounts to you asking for proof that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  Like most censors,  you feel you are doing us a favor, which makes debate so difficult.  


But here is an article that does a far better job than I am willing to do.   I hope you'll read it,


The Long History of Censorship (beaconforfreedom.org)


Censorship has followed the free expressions of men and women like a shadow throughout history. In ancient societies, for example China, censorship was considered a legitimate instrument for regulating the moral and political life of the population. The origin of the term censor can be traced to the office of censor established in Rome i 443 BC. In Rome, as in the ancient Greek communities, the ideal of good governance included shaping the character of the people. Hence censorship was regarded as an honourable task. In China, the first censorship law was introduced in 300 AD.

By 7475 - Oct. 10, 2021, 9:16 a.m.
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Everybody be careful with this subject.

Take a deep breath.

As always, good points on both sides

Soon we'll need a referee as well as a moderator.

  John

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 10:07 a.m.
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Thanks John, great advice.

Tim,

I am not your enemy. 

Vent your anger at the ones making you angry by deceiving you.....not the one dedicated to enlightening you with authentic facts,science and truth.

Vent your rage at the ones pretending to care about you but are targeting you for their self serving political interests....not the one that you know in your heart really does care about you.

I’ve been totally transparent about my mission here. 

Your behavior and response greatly saddens and actually shocks me.

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 11:08 a.m.
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John,

No referee needed here.

I know what's right, fair and objective  and how to live by the scientific method and the truth based on facts,  which is the only reason I decided to be the moderator here.

Tim can reject all those things and it's on him.

He is doing it to himself and I wish that I could help but he doesn't get to dictate MarketForum policy based on his politically defined beliefs.

I can go for lots of suggestions and ideas but one of them is not letting a poster dictate to the moderator of 3.5 years what the rules will be.....so they line up favorably for that persons belief system.



I feel bad that Tim is taking this path and wish he were not doing it but he's his own worst enemy here and he's actually absolute proof of himself being wrong.

If I was just banning people that disagree with me as he claims..........then why hasn't he been banned?

Especially after breaking his own rule by calling me ignorant?


Reasonstobe thankful here in 2021!

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/45623/


Note that I'm not even warning Tim.

I am 100% behind letting people express themselves here with any opinions they want and especially those that disagree with me.........like this one. Always have and always will be.

Gunter was put in a temporary penalty box for just the NTR forum for this month for posting hundreds of messages over months that are  anti science messages that have been killing thousands of people in this country

There is 0% uncertainty about whether those messages have caused people to NOT get vaccinated and 0% uncertainty about whether thousands of people have died because of that.

I don't know how more clear I can be on this and I actually gave Gunter an insane amount of enabling, which in retrospect was a mistake. My friendship and anti censorship position caused me to fail to take actions months ago, when it was first justified. 

I can't control Tim's words and actions but he's doing his position a great disfavor right now.......no, that's not a warning. He's contributed way, way, way too much valuable stuff thru the years and I still consider him a good friend so I am not worried about his tantrum here, other than to minimize his own self inflicted wounds.......if possible.

By kris - Oct. 10, 2021, 3:27 p.m.
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"There is 0% uncertainty about whether those messages have caused people to NOT get vaccinated and 0% uncertainty about whether thousands of people have died because of that."


There is no way for you, or anyone else, to know "whether thousands of people have died because of that [the messages]"


By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 4:21 p.m.
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Thanks kris,

I only state things supported by the empirical data/evidence.

Here it is.........indisputable.

The data...............is the data.  It speaks loud and clear independent of what I might think or want to think.

 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75252/#75261

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75252/#75262

Note the example of what's going on in the real world in Alaska(any many other states):

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75405/#75412

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 4:43 p.m.
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I can speculate to say that most likely there were more republicans than democrats affected by this, resulting  in more deaths to that party based on this from the article(as well us everybody on the planet knowing republicans are the anti COVID vaxx party). 

However, I don't quite have the confidence level of  the actual data to back that SPECULATION UP to 100% certainty, like that data that exists to support the previous statement. 


https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75252/#75261

Another big difference that explains that divergence is one of culture and politics. Covid vaccinations have become, like so much of America’s pandemic response, polarized along political lines. As of July, 86 percent of Democrats said they were vaccinated, according to a Kaiser Family Foundation survey, while only 54 percent of Republicans said the same. One in five Republicans said they would “definitely not” get the vaccine.

“This political divide over vaccines has contributed to the US falling behind European countries when it comes to coverage levels,” Josh Michaud, associate director of global health policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation, told me."

              

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 4:58 p.m.
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Funny how everybody that disagrees with this absolute certainty based on the extremely reliable data says...............I don't believe the data.

They will say that it came from the CDC or the MSM or the government or Fauci which is just trying to trick us into getting vaccinated because they really want to take control of our lives. As if all the doctors and nurses in 50 states are conspiring to trick people with fake data from all the hospitals.

There really is a grain of truth to that paranoid, wacko conspiracy theory that I  finally stopped Gunter from promoting for his agenda(he actually did mention the actual conspiracy theory flat out numerous times) on the forum as the moderator.

Those groups really  are actually trying to control LIVES for the benefits of those living by way of convincing people to be smart and make the RIGHT choice.........get vaccinated(using authentic data/science) ............ instead of letting them turn into unnecessary DEATHS because of scientific ignorance and conspiracy theories.......the later  WILL NEVER represent the majority of posting on MarketForum. 

It's fine to have that bad opinion and post it at MarketForum...........but its not fine to post it 200+ times in 5 months, along with junk science sources and at times, quack doctors and telling people that the vaccine kills more people than COVID and that the vaccine changes your DNA.

Comprende?

Do you believe any of  those things kris?


By kris - Oct. 10, 2021, 5:11 p.m.
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Let's see if I "comprende" (my english is quite good btw) your message, I shall ask more specifically then:


Because of all the "anti-vax messages" floating around, thousands of people have died just because they read these messages?

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 5:31 p.m.
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"Because of all the "anti-vax messages" floating around, thousands of people have died just because they read these messages?"

Of course they did kris. OF COURSE! 100% certainty. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean its not so.

Did you not look at the death count and hospital rate for vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

Or the differences in republicans vs democrats.

Did many tens of millions of republicans all simultaneously sign up for virology classes and educated themselves on the biology/science of virus's?

Of course not.

Did aliens from outer space shoot a brainwash beam into millions of mostly republicans heads?

Yeah, that's pretty absurd and  sarcastic intentionally.

By what method of delivery do you speculate that republicans got their anti COVID vaxx messages from?

I contend and KNOW with absolute certainty where it came from because I watch and read them and Gunter posted their stuff with links to them 100 times.

So Gunter posts the same stuff here that we know tens of millions of Americans are getting from the same anti vaxx sources. Have you not been reading it? Do you live in a cave?

These messages have absolutely, with 100% certainty come from right and especially far right sources and totally explain why the far right is anti vaxx.

What's your theory kris?  Or are you just trying to argue with something that already, indisputably proven because you don't like the decision.

What is you opinion on the vaccines kris.

Are you for them?

Do you think they are saving lives with minimal risks.

I'm not going to waste any more time if you are another anti COVID vaxx nutter because your responses in this thread have totally denied the indisputable, proven facts and science............even after I showed it to you..........again.



By kris - Oct. 10, 2021, 6:07 p.m.
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"Because of all the "anti-vax messages" floating around, thousands of people have died just because they read these messages?"

Of course they did kris. OF COURSE! 100% certainty. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean its not so.

Okay: 100% certainty, so all those people on their death bed admitted to the fact that they refused the vaccine because of those messages

They didn't act out of their own free will, they just succumbed to these darn messages, so who hired the pollsters who questioned these people in their final hours?

Did you not look at the death count and hospital rate for vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

Not interested

Or the differences in republicans vs democrats.

Not interested

By what method of delivery do you speculate that republicans got their anti COVID vaxx messages from?

Similarly: by what method of delivery did democrats get their vax mandate ? Oh wait: initially the vaccine could not be trusted because Trump "created" it, remember those days?

I contend and KNOW with absolute certainty where it came from because I watch and read them and Gunter posted their stuff with links to them 100 times. So Gunter posts the same stuff here that we know tens of millions of Americans are getting from the same anti vaxx sources. Have you not been reading it? Do you live in a cave?

Haven't read much of it no and I don't live in a cave but at the same time I tend to make a life for myself and don't let anyone/anything else make a life for me.

These messages have absolutely, with 100% certainty come from right and especially far right sources and totally explain why the far right is anti vaxx. What's your theory kris?  Or are you just trying to argue with something that already, indisputably proven because you don't like the decision.

Don't like what decision? What has been decided here? According to you it is a fact that millions of folks have refused the vaccine because of "messages". I can dispute that "fact" just by way of knowing that none of those people answered a questionnaire in the positive or negative concerning the "messages".

What is you opinion on the vaccines kris. Are you for them?

Neither for or against, whether to get a vaccine, any vaccine for that matter is a decision that every individual needs to make for him or herself.

Do you think they are saving lives with minimal risks.

They save lives, risks (longer term) are yet unknown and to be assessed in the future.

I'm not going to waste any more time if you are another anti COVID vaxx nutter because your responses in this thread have totally denied the indisputable, proven facts and science............even after I showed it to you..........again.

Is it your position then that anyone who elects not to get vaccinated against Covid is nuts?


By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 7:25 p.m.
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kris,

Your circular arguments and claims that we need certified statements from people on their death beds that didn't get vaccinated conducted by pollsters  TELLING US where they got the idea's from to know for sure where it came from is insanely absurd.

Using the same rhetoric about us not knowing the long term effects of the vaccinations and speculating that it changes ones DNA or does something we don't understand and will  have to wait years to see what might happen is just an indication that you have no idea how the vaccination works...........side effects would be extremely unlikely for any reason beyond 3 weeks.

I showed this to Gunter several times. 

Not understanding how the vaccine works is no excuse or justification to claim potential health threats that DO NOT EXIST from it. 

You've already been shown the rock solid facts/empirical data that are the basis for my points and decisions.

Sorry that you don't like the well explained (in detail numerous times and more than enough for you to comprehend without repeating it again) and very justified reasoning for my decisions here.

Again, I'm totally transparent and use authentic science and data. 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/75944/#75988

You can't show that any of this is wrong(because its the data from reliable sources) so you go thru all sorts of verbal gymnastics to convince yourself not to believe it.

That's your choice kris.

Mine is to make good decisions for MarketForum's readers so we don't represent conspiracy theories and junk science.

Again, You and everyone else are welcome to have any opinion that you want......especially if it disagrees with mine.........to force me to show the data/science or concede.

But you aren't allowed to state that opinion 200 times in 5 months to try to turn MarketForum into your own propaganda tool.........if the message is killing TENS of thousands of Americans. 




By kris - Oct. 10, 2021, 8:23 p.m.
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kris,

Your circular arguments and claims that we need certified statements from people on their death beds that didn't get vaccinated conducted by pollsters  TELLING US where they got the idea's from to know for sure where it came from is insanely absurd.

Your argument is just as absurd since neither you nor anyone else knows what motivated people to not get the vaccine, you just assume it is because of all those "messages", that is where you lay the blame and that is the only thing you point to as the cause for people not getting vaccinated.

you have no idea how the vaccination works

I sure don't have an idea how this vaccine works, but there are people who do:

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/23/lets_stop_pretending_about_the_covid-19_vaccines_791050.html

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715

side effects would be extremely unlikely for any reason beyond 3 weeks.

??? :

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-612103/v2

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/94061?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-08-17

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-july-13-2021

https://drrichswier.com/2021/09/18/summary-covid-19-vaccine-concerns/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7827936/

By metmike - Oct. 10, 2021, 10:32 p.m.
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Thanks for confirming what I was stating earlier.

Long term side effects, when they occur will be extremely rare/unlikely based on what we know.......as in a very small number of people affected based on the evidence and the benefits that include saving hundreds of thousands of lives in the US compared  to the small risks are extremely one sided to the benefits side.

If you take most short term adverse reactions and look at how frequently they occur in the vaccine compared to the actual virus, they occur many times more frequently in the virus as your studies show the very low frequency from the vaccinations. 

Death is the most severe adverse reaction from COVID but long COVID, which in some people is from permanent damage from COVID occurs more frequently by several orders of magnitude greater in COVID compared to the vaccine.

You won't believe it though, so when I get the chance, I'll copy the many dozens of threads I had with Gunter which show this and refer you to that information because I don't have the time to waste on a another anti COVID vaccine guy.

As of October 10th, there have now been 6,500,000,000 COVID shots administered over the course of almost a year so we have a tremendous amount of great data. The ones claiming the vaccines haven't been tested because its not been much longer than that............will never be happy.

It used to be it was experimental because the FDA did not approve it.........then when the FDA approved it........it was on to another reason. I hope that you're not of the ones that thinks that it might change your DNA.

More Than 6.5 Billion Shots
Given: Covid-19 Tracker

      In the U.S., 402 million doses have been administered

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/

You will  never believe that anti vaxx messages from far right news sites, like FOX and INFOWARS and especially on social media played the biggest role in the difference between republicans and democrats NOT getting vaccinated........and you've convinced yourself NOT to believe the overwhelming evidence that proves that it that WAS the main reason but here some of it is anyway below.


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/disinformation-dozen-two-thirds-of-online-anti-vaccine-content-originates-from-top-12-anti-vax-leaders-301255060.html

https://f4d9b9d3-3d32-4f3a-afa6-49f8bf05279a.usrfiles.com/ugd/f4d9b9_16ccca9c25a04445a69dcd0298fd530d.pdf

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fox's effort to undermine vaccines has only worsened

https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/foxs-effort-undermine-vaccines-has-only-worsened

                 

In the most recent two-week period studied, Fox personalities and guests made claims undermining immunization efforts in 63% of vaccine segments            

      

           

  • In a six-week period from June 28 through August 8, Fox aired 628 coronavirus vaccine segments with 59% of those including claims undercutting immunization.
  • Overall, Fox personalities and guests voiced 840 claims undermining or downplaying the immunization effort.
  • Forty-seven percent of vaccine segments included claims suggesting that immunization efforts were coercive, represented government overreach, or violated personal freedom or choice.
  • Thirty-three percent of segments included claims suggesting that vaccination was unnecessary or dangerous.
  • Ten percent of segments included claims politicizing immunization efforts as a cynical ploy by Democrats to win elections or to take undue credit for the vaccine rollout.
  • Fox & Friends, including its early morning and weekend editions, comprised the most vaccine segments with 151; of those, 58% included claims undermining vaccinations.
  • Fox’s weekday evening opinion programming, airing from 7 p.m. through 11 p.m., accounted for 130 segments; of those, 92% included claims undermining vaccination. (The Ingraham Angle aired negative claims in 98% of its vaccine segments, Hannity was second with 91%, and Tucker Carlson Tonight and Fox News Primetime followed with 90% and 89%, respectively.)
  • Particularly egregious were Fox hosts Tucker Carlson and Brian Kilmeade, who each made 53 claims undercutting vaccines. Following them was frequent Fox guest Dr. Marty Makary, who made 45 claims. Rounding out the top five were hosts Laura Ingraham and Pete Hegseth with 41 claims each.
  • ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


metmike hasn't been the only one spending hundreds of hours fact checking things about COVID and the vaccine in the past year+




Since its outbreak in Wuhan, China, in late 2019, the virus officially known as SARS-CoV-2 and the disease COVID-19 have spread rapidly — and so has misinformation. PolitiFact has fact-checked a lot of popular social media posts about the virus, including fake coronavirus cures, false news reports and conspiracy theories about the spread. Have a question about COVID-19 that we haven’t answered yet? Send it to truthometer@politifact.com.


Scorecard-From POLITIFACT. 

True

4%

49 Checks

Mostly True

7%

78 Checks

Half True

8%

95 Checks

Mostly False

14%

160 Checks

False

50%

544 Checks

Pants on Fire

14%

158 Checks

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCHgskxAaO0



I strongly suggest that we move on to something much more productive as was intended by the new MarketForum, when I took over in 2018 after it had completely died for a couple of months and was going to be shut down.

This coming week, I'll try to retrieve and copy my numerous fact checks embedded in discussions with Gunter over the last several months and will refer you to those in the future, which covers almost everything............several times over(and over and over).


For more details, se

By kris - Oct. 10, 2021, 11:43 p.m.
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Long term side effects, when they occur will be extremely rare/unlikely based on what we know

"Based on what we know" being the operative statement. Based on what we don't know (yet) we have no clue.

 I'll copy the many dozens of threads I had with Gunter which show this and refer you to that information because I don't have the time to waste on a another anti COVID vaccine guy.

Save yourself the trouble because I am not anti vaccine, let me state this again since you didn't acknowledge it the first time: 

Neither for or against, whether to get a vaccine, any vaccine for that matter is a decision that every individual needs to make for him or herself.

What I find really hilarious is you constantly  attacking Fox as being extreme right etcetera yet in the above post you cite Bloomberg, MSNBC and Politifact to bolster your arguments, really Mike ? 

Here is what we know:

1) Covid mortality rate in the USA is about 1.5 to 2% of those diagnosed with the disease.

2) Compared with 18- to 29-year-olds, the rate of death is 4 times higher in 30- to 39-year-olds, increases by the decade and is 570 times higher in those who are 85 years and older

2) For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.9 additional conditions or causes per death

3) In the USA between 42% and 67.9% of the adult population is overweight and/or obese

4) Models estimate that 30.2% of Covid hospitalizations were attributed to obesity

5) About 78% of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese

Based on the above facts one can conclude that being (very) old, being over weight or outright obese your chances of dying from Covid increase exponentially. 

I would hope that every individual can make the decision as to get vaccinated or not by him or herself based on personal medical history and self assessment.



By metmike - Oct. 11, 2021, 1:41 a.m.
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kris, 

Most people here know by now from me repeating it that I use data and science and could care less about the source(s).

If a source has the authentic empirical data or science right..............I use it.  As a scientist, I always research the science, using data and other inputs independently.

Same thing with Fauci or anybody else.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/67714/#75640

Trusting any one source and not fact checking them is taking a chance, although certain ones are much more reliable than others. 

I don't need to fact check sources that I use most of the time because I already did the fact checking THEN picked a source that has those facts right...........not the other way around. 

Please try to get that message. 

It's the DATA and SCIENCE that matters the most NOT the source.


Apparently you like FOX and didn't like those comments. Unfortunately, I haven't been ever able to use FOX as a source for COVID vaxx information(that I remember).   Guess why?

They and several other right to far right outlets have almost no credibility on COVID, the vaccine because they almost always get the facts/science WRONG on that topic.

I watch FOX enough to be certain of this. 


I've used FOX  many dozens of other times in just the last several months  for other information because they don't always violate good  or honest science and they make good points on other things, like the southern border issue but they mess up badly in this case on the science and advice about vaccines, with Tucker C being a particularly bad science, anti vaxx guy.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/67714/#75787

Actually, I just remembered that I did use tucker on fox more than anybody or any other source on this topic recently.........to show him LYING about vaccines and demonstrating Fauci Derangement Sydrome.

"Neither for or against, whether to get a vaccine, any vaccine for that matter is a decision that every individual needs to make for him or herself."

You have a very unusual way of communicating vaccine related facts kris, if you are neutral because they are all one sided for you..........as in, you insist that metmike can't know that people not getting vaccinated caused thousands of deaths(when OF COURSE it did and OF COURSE I and millions of other DO KNOW that).

The reason that most people on the right who are anti COVID vaccine are anti COVID vaxx is BECAUSE OF THE PRO CHOICE issue.

If you are pro choice it would make for a pretty flimsy reason for not getting vaccinated if you say.........."Getting vaccinated is relatively safe and saves thousands of lives............but despite that....... I won't do it anyway because.........screw other people who get COVID from unvaccinated people like me".

Instead, the position is "getting vaccinated has high risks that THEY are hiding from us and doesn't work as well as THEY want us to think and letting THEM control us with vaccine mandates is just the start of  THEM taking control of our lives.......so this justifies my and others reason for not getting vaccinated.

Will you at least admit to that truth?

Regardless........it's just another fact and even farther past  time to move on.

So this will be my last post on this topic in this thread.


By kris - Oct. 12, 2021, 9:59 p.m.
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"It's the DATA and SCIENCE that matters the most NOT the source"

True but the data and science are always the same when we categorize those by source

"Apparently you like FOX"

Another assumption on your part

"Neither for or against, whether to get a vaccine, any vaccine for that matter is a decision that every individual needs to make for him or herself."

You have a very unusual way of communicating vaccine related facts kris, if you are neutral because they are all one sided for you..........as in, you insist that metmike can't know that people not getting vaccinated caused thousands of deaths(when OF COURSE it did and OF COURSE I and millions of other DO KNOW that)."

Another assumption on your part. I never "insisted" that "metmike can't know that people not getting vaccinated caused thousands of deaths". Nice way to change the goal posts. 

Your premise originally was that them thar "messages" (from the far right of course) caused the deaths and that was the only reason I questioned you just because you nor anyone else has the data/science to back that statement.

[Now it's simply people not being vaccinated dying, well: duh .... ?!?

"The reason that most people on the right who are anti COVID vaccine are anti COVID vaxx is BECAUSE OF THE PRO CHOICE issue.

Another assumption on your part, most people, on the right or the left (why do you want to keep politicizing this I wonder... no more ...), contrary to "popular" belief, are able to make their own decisions when it pertains to their health. Why you ask? Just because they know a lot more about their health than any bureaucrat can ever pretend to know.

If you are pro choice it would make for a pretty flimsy reason for not getting vaccinated if you say.........."Getting vaccinated is relatively safe and saves thousands of lives............but despite that....... I won't do it anyway because.........screw other people who get COVID from unvaccinated people like me"."

Ah yes: the classic guilt trip shaming with some fear porn thrown in for good measure. I can't believe you the scientist would resort to this Mike because I have a ton of respect for you but this is totally beneath you. So what about "other people" who get Covid from vaccinated people? Moreover: if you are vaccinated you have nothing to be afraid of right ... ?

Instead, the position is "getting vaccinated has high risks that THEY are hiding from us and doesn't work as well as THEY want us to think and letting THEM control us with vaccine mandates is just the start of  THEM taking control of our lives.......so this justifies my and others reason for not getting vaccinated.

Your words, not mine (assuming again?)  Meanwhile take a look at what is happening in Australia and Canada, is that a society we want to recreate here?

Will you at least admit to that truth?

No, because there is no truth in fact to your above statement except maybe in your world and that is okay by me. That does not mean however that I will blindly submit to any goverment's "mandate" claiming that it is my "patriotic" (cough cough) duty to comply with their wishes as to my health status which they have no clue about to begin with and is none of their business anyway.

It all boils down to: is the government smarter than me about my health? 

Is their "one size fits all" what I want to subscribe to? 

Can I determine, based upon facts and/or science, life style, environment, living conditions etcetera whether or not I am at risk of getting infected with Covid/Flu/West Nile Virus/Hantavirus/Tetanus/Tarantula Hawks or any other inconvenience which may or may not affect my life style and those around me ? As a matter of fact: yes I can !


By metmike - Oct. 12, 2021, 10:44 p.m.
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