The sinking of Russia's cruiser Moskva
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Started by GunterK - April 17, 2022, 6:29 p.m.

The news went around the world…. the Ukraine sunk Russia’s “pride of their Black Sea Fleet”…. the cruiser Moskva…

The first report told us that the Ukraine had launched 2 missiles that struck and immediately sunk the ship, taking all of the 500+ crew to their death.

Russia then released another story… a fire had broken out aboard the ship and had blown up some of their shells and missiles.  They tried to tow the ship back to Sevastopol, but the ship sunk due to bad weather. Most of the crew were safely brought back to land.

It seems, the Russians released their story to avoid embarrassment.

I was surprised to read that the Russian cruiser was not able to detect an incoming threat and could not eliminate the threat.  I found this to be strange and I started to do some research, using google, Wikipedia and other sources and found out even more astonishing information…

The Ukraine is not the poor, little, defenseless country, as our MSM has described it to us.   According to google, the Ukraine has a lively arms industry.  In 2018, it was ranked as the 11th largest arms exporter in the world.

The missile used in the attack on the Moskva, called “Neptune”, was built and developed in the Ukraine, several years ago…obviously in preparation for engagement with Russia’s Black Sea FLeet.

Among other things, they also have a missile named Tochka-U, which is an older Russian rocket, not used by the Russians anymore, but still kept in the Ukrainian arsenal. (I saw use of this missile mentioned on 3 occasions)

The Neptune is a subsonic missile. It would have taken at least 15 minutes to reach the location of the Moskva. I saw no mention of the missile being a stealth-design.  Did the Russians carelessly cruise around, ignoring incoming threats?

We will probably never know the details.

We all have seen the numerous pictures of destroyed Russian tanks. No doubt, the Ukrainians have fought back harder than the Russians had expected. The Russians have suffered significant losses of men and equipment...and we learned about the Russians withdrawing their troops from certain areas.

According to the CNN article below, Zelensky praised his troops.

“Zelensky has on Friday praised the Ukrainian armed forces for repelling Russian attacks, saying they were "doing it brilliantly."

Reading this, I thought that, in view of Ukraine’s military successes, this might be a good time to think about serious negotiations, aimed at finding a peaceful compromise, and ending this miserable war.

However, the CNN article also reports this, in connection with the Moskva incident….

“…Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky struck a somber note telling CNN the world should be prepared for the possibility that Russian President Vladimir Putin could use tactical nuclear weapons.”

In other words…. instead of using the successful advances of his military, and striving for a diplomatic settlement, Zelensky ordered the Moskva to be sunk, knowing that this attack would escalate this war and could possible turn it into a nuclear war !!!!!!!

This incident is also a reminder for our US Navy. For many years, the US military has relied on aircraft carriers to project firepower into far-away places. With the advent of China's and Russia's hypersonic missiles, these aircraft carriers would be sitting ducks.

By metmike - April 17, 2022, 7:59 p.m.
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Right Gunter.

More of your bs anti Ukraine propaganda.

According to you, it's Ukraine that's dragging the war on because they won't negotiate.

Ukraine is actually the current aggressor, as shown by this attack.

Ukraine has been pretending(you claim) to be defenseless and a poor country being attacked by the evil Russia and this shows the opposite. They are actually a  world power when it comes to military might and they and the MSM have been covering it up and tricking us into thinking that Russia is at fault with all the Ukrainian that one too Gunter (-: 

Putin also must not have known what you did either Gunter because he thought it would be a cake walk when he marched in,  attacked/bombed and killed thousands of Ukrainians with no provocation from Ukraine........ the thousands of images/video of the Russians doing this must have all been faked, right?

And Ukraine continues to prolong the war(according to you) because they should just lie down and let the Russians take over their country, like Putin intended and agree to any terms the Russians give them(like in your earlier post).........or else it's Ukraine's fault for dragging this conflict on needlessly.

This quote takes the cake:

In other words…. instead of using the successful advances of his military, and striving for a diplomatic settlement, Zelensky ordered the Moskva to be sunk, knowing that this attack would escalate this war and could possible turn it into a nuclear war !!!!!!!

Your half dozen exclamation points tell us how strongly you feel that you consider Zelensky and Ukraine as the current aggressors in this war and, once again are showing why its their fault that there's no diplomatic settlement........GOT IT GUNTER!!!!!!!

Depicting Russia trying to end the war with negotiations and Ukraine as refusing to negotiate and instead, intentionally doing things to keep the war going is  also very dishonest Gunter:

What diplomatic solution might end the war in Ukraine?

        Russia and Ukraine are talking, but huge gulfs remain


metmike: This is a very odd way for Russia to be pushing for peace right now:

Moscow claims its forces have taken most of Mariupol; Russian navy boss meets with Moskva sailors

Updated Sun, Apr 17 20222:21 AM EDT

Where do you get this stuff, man?

Here's just a few that have been pushing pro Russia, anti Ukraine stuff recently. If somebody follows them...........they likely believe their propaganda because they go to that source to hear/read the news the way they tell it.

These Are the American Right-Wingers Covering for Putin as Russia Invades Ukraine


From Tucker Carlson to Tulsi Gabbard, these prominent Moscow apologists tried to tell you Ukraine’s fate shouldn’t matter to America

metmike: Is there propaganda coming from the Ukrainian side? 

Of course there is. Which is why one needs to stop believing in everything from just one side and look at what makes sense. 

The country that started this  war and the attacks from them are so blatantly one sided and the horrible war crimes/atrocities with so much absolute proof for everybody to see, that it doesn't take much hard thinking. Just a NON CAPTURED brain with a few objective cells that doesn't get all their news from extreme political sources.

By GunterK - April 18, 2022, 5:16 a.m.
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metmike, you sure know how to twist things around.

according to you I wrote “…They are actually a  world power when it comes to military might …”

That’s not true… I never said that.  I stated that in 2018 the Ukraine was “the 11th largest arms exporter in the world”....check it on google, instead of calling it B.S.

When a country produces and exports arms, it obviously has more than it needs for themselves.

I have never condoned Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine, or said anything nice about Putin.  And yes, I have seen the videos and images of what the war has done…. (even though I don’t think there are thousands of them… but there are enough).  I have never debated them, with exception of that one strange video from Bucha… the only one!

You wrote ” And Ukraine continues to prolong the war(according to you) because they should just lie down and let the Russians take over their country”

I never said that they should let the Russians take over their country. Fighing when your country is invaded, is the right thing to do.  However, a while back the Russians did make an offer that seemed fair to me… it had to do with the Ukraine remaining a neutral country.  However, Zelensky has made it quite clear that he won’t budge on certain demands that he knows he won’t get… meaning he either get all he wants, or lets the Ukraine be turned into rubble.

Your own link… the far-left, also focuses on the importance of finding a diplomatic solution to this war, or the war will go on forever…. and that’s all I have been hoping for…a diplomatic solution.

I never said that the Ukraine was the aggressor in this war… that would be silly… the Ukraine was invaded!!  (although I have criticized NATO’s aggressive behavior in the past).

The Ukraine is most certainly allowed to fight back, knock out all this tanks… after all, they are defending their country against an invader.

However, the attack on the Moskva is of a different dimension. It is a much more significant loss to the Russians than a few tanks.

I want to make this very clear…. the significant thing in this discussion is not the fact that the Ukraine managed to sink this ship, but the fact that Zelensky ordered this attack, believing, that this attack would create a nuclear response.  This should tell you enough about the mind-set of hero Zelensky

It’s good for all of us that the Russians are blaming the sinking of this ship on an internal fire.

I do agree with you, when you write “metmike: Is there propaganda coming from the Ukrainian side?Of course there is. Which is why one needs to stop believing in everything from just one side and look at what makes sense. “

There are Russian news sites, written in English.Do they provide Russian propaganda?Well, of course they do!

At the same time, our MSM gives Zelensky an open door, where he can directly publish his propaganda… and nobody questions it.

Yes, Zelensky provides pictures, videos, interviews with people on the ground… evidence!

The Russian sites do the same

The truth is somewhere in between.  Those who blindly believe one side… be it the Russian side, or the Ukrainian side… will have their brain captured…. and that’s what I have been trying to avoid

What has disturbed me a bit is the fact that our MSM has become Zelensky's personal propaganda machine. One can truly say, Zelensky has captured their minds.

I repeat again… I condemn Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine. I condemn the needless killing of civilians.  When civilians are killed intentionally, that’s a war crime.

What needs to be pointed out though is the fact that the Ukraine, for last few years, has shelled civilians in the break-away republics in the Donbass.  Those shellings are, by definition, war crimes.  The Ukrainian administration and military are no angels.

By metmike - April 18, 2022, 11:19 a.m.
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The truth is somewhere in between.  Those who blindly believe one side… be it the Russian side, or the Ukrainian side… will have their brain captured…. and that’s what I have been trying to avoid

Thanks for giving us the other side, not told by people that support Ukraine, Gunter!

By metmike - April 18, 2022, 2:40 p.m.
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Every  conversation with you feels like an adventure into the land of creatively twisted words and meanings to show whatever it is you want to show.

This mindset, actually is why you’ve expressed a belief in half a dozen completely busted conspiracy theories here…..and never acknowledge the conspiracy theory busting authentic facts.

By GunterK - April 18, 2022, 6:51 p.m.
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I apologize if my posts are confusing to you.  Maybe it’s best if I just post a link and let a link deliver a message..


By metmike - April 18, 2022, 7:29 p.m.
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Your posts are absolutely NOT confusing to me. I've had many, many hundreds of them to understand exactly where you're coming from.

I've been making that crystal clear too and apparently you aren't understanding those messages either.

So let me make it even more clear again, Gunter/repeat it.

You are a very dishonest person, pretending to be open minded/objective and of course, always polite and feigning ignorance on things you refuse to acknowledge,  that comes here much of the time to push propaganda and conspiracy theories that line up with your, often delusional understanding of the world, mostly based on all the extreme right sources that you use to fill up your head with total DISinformation that you WANT to believe in......and to get others to believe in.

1. Chemtrails-the government is using them to poison and control us

2. Energy beams from space directed by China to cause the wildfires and damage in the West.

3. An energy beam from space to destroy a building in Nashville that supposedly had all the records from Dominion Voting Systems that proved all the fraud they committed to take millions of votes from Trump and give them to Biden.

4. The COVID vaccine was killing more people than COVID

5. The COVID vaccine changed peoples DNA permanently

6. George Floyd wasn't really killed by the cop kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes, who also prevented any life saving attempts by others after he stopped breathing......George Floyd really died, according to you  from a drug overdose and would have died no matter what Chauvin did.

You think that other far right people here as your audience are easy pickins and easy to steal their intelligence as they already have preconceived notions to believe all of your bs, so you come here to spread it.

This is how propaganda works.

You are our MarketForum propaganda king!

These links prove all those listed items above indisputably, Gunter.

Maybe you are so pathological that the lying is part of it. But I did everything humanly possible to try to help you.

Having failed miserably, I know that the best I can do now is to alert other people to who you really are.

By metmike - April 18, 2022, 8:43 p.m.
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With regards to your latest attempt at pushing propaganda here Gunter, this time anti Ukrainian, pro Russian propaganda, we note that your latest source that you think proves your case is a video from Patrick Lancaster.

As with all your previous bs, one only has to have some basic fact checking skills to bust you.

Lancaster has been a supposedly independent, US journalist over there for 8 years, while posting almost all ANTI Ukrainian, PRO Russian stuff the entire time.

Using him, just like using Alex Jones, Zero Hedge and Joseph Mercola for your COVID vaccine and other DISinformation, tells us exactly where you are getting some of your latest conspiracy theory stuff from!

Busted your BS DISinformation once again Gunter and foiled your new attempts to propagandize other people here.

Russia’s favorite war propagandist is a Navy veteran from Missouri

Putin’s invasion has catapulted Patrick Lancaster, who calls himself an independent journalist, into the limelight.

Jason Paladino, Investigative Reporter, Anya van Wagtendonk, Misinformation Reporter

April 18, 2022

The reporter on the scene wasn’t Russian but was Missouri-born Patrick Lancaster, 39, a U.S. Navy intelligence veteran and self-styled “independent, crowd-funded journalist.” Over the years, he’s shown a knack for being first on the scene to capture what appeared to be staged evidence benefiting Kremlin narratives. He has also courted an audience of American conspiracy theory enthusiasts by appearing on Alex Jones’ radio show, which promotes falsehoods like Joe Biden stealing the 2020 presidential election.

Lancaster’s work has become a regular feature of Russian state media. His footage and commentary have appeared on Russia Today, a state-run English-language channel; Russia-1 and Russia-24, two of the flagship state-owned Russian language channels; and Zvezda, a channel owned by the Russian Ministry of Defense.

In Ukraine, he enjoys access to Russian-controlled territories, where he is often the only English-speaking reporter. In his videos, he sometimes appears to accompany Russian military. In one recent video posted to his Telegram channel, he dons a white strap around his arm and leg, a form of identification used by Russian soldiers to recognize one another. He tells the camera if he didn’t do this, he has been informed he could be mistaken for a Ukrainian soldier and shot. On Telegram, pro-Russian trolls encourage users to support Lancaster’s work.

Just prior to Russia’s invasion, Lancaster was one of the first to report on an alleged “terrorist attack” on three civilians, purportedly carried out by Ukraine. In his coverage, he uncritically repeats what he appears to have been told by Russian military: Ukrainian saboteurs had detonated an improvised explosive device from the side of the road.

In this case, the scene appears to have been so lazily constructed that Lancaster’s own footage captures apparent evidence of the lie: his images of the remains inside the vehicle revealed an impossibly clean cut along the front of one “victim’s” skull, consistent with an autopsy. Grid confirmed with experts at the time that this was the case, and subsequent reporting further established the truth: This was not evidence of an IED attack, and the bodies appeared to have been sourced from a morgue.

As far back as 2014, Lancaster was shooting and posting videos from the region, including a dubious piece meant to challenge the veracity of the investigation into a civilian airliner shot down by a Russian anti-aircraft missile.

Lancaster is one node in an elaborate network of propagandists Putin and his allies have exploited for years to maintain Putin’s support with the Russian public and beyond. Since the invasion of Ukraine, the Kremlin has used a heavy-handed media campaign to paint Ukraine as a nation overrun by Nazis and in need of liberation by Russian forces. The strategy has boosted Putin’s approval ratings even as the economy craters, news stations are forced off the air and the military suffers enormous losses.

Lancaster’s internet empire

Lancaster has built a global audience for himself since then, in part by skillfully leveraging the many social media platforms available to broadcast content worldwide. He has about 500,000 followers across Twitter, YouTube, Telegram and VK, the Russian Facebook clone. He releases new videos almost daily. YouTube, his most trafficked outlet, reports over 30 million views for his videos.

Lancaster’s reach has been further boosted by American uber-conspiracy-theorist Jones, who has made Lancaster a recurring guest on his show, “Infowars.” Jones has been a major proponent of the “Stop the Steal” movement to overturn Donald Trump’s 2020 election loss, and his shows often describe real news events as fantastical “false flag” intelligence operations meant to mislead and confuse the American public. Jones did not respond to a request for comment. In an unrelated lawsuit, Jones’ lawyers have argued that no reasonable person would believe his over-the-top rhetoric.

In one “Infowars” segment with Lancaster, titled “American Reporter in Ukraine Exposing the Globalist WW3 Russian False Flag Op in Real Time,” Jones heaps praise on the expatriate Missourian, in between advertisements selling buckets of shelf-stable food and dietary supplements. “He shows what the Western media will not show you,” Jones said on one episode. To Lancaster, he said, “You’ve done so much amazing work I feel like I know you.”

On a recent “Infowars” appearance, Lancaster implored Jones’ audience to “do your own research.” On screen, Jones promotes Lancaster’s Patreon, a fundraising platform popular with podcasters.

“Think for yourself,” Lancaster says, “Don’t listen to the narrative the Western mainstream media gives you. Research and find out the facts.”


Implying that I am confused and you are showing a video from this person to help make me less confused?

You are proving that there is no bottom to how low you will go with your DISinformation and deceit here.

Yes, that's exactly what you did Gunter. Do you think that I'm an idiot or just that others here are?


I apologize to other posters that have to be subjected to this but it's a good lesson to learn about the innocent and convincing sounding snakes out there, telling you what you want to hear, while stealing your intelligence with pure propaganda.

By metmike - April 19, 2022, 11:26 a.m.
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