was scanning through the link in your post... typical rawstory editorial without substance....
Trump.... Trump is destroying the US,.. dictator....martial law....Ok, sounds horrible...what can we do?
But then I came to the last paragraph...
".....An entire generation of Germans, Italians, and Spaniards are aging into their twilight years right now wishing they’d had such imagination in the early 1930s....."
Hey!!! Wait a minuter! Are you talking to me???
I am an ageing German.
I am sure, my parents, or any still living 100+ year-old German is wondering why did things go so wrong at that time, and what could have been done to prevent this from happening?
and now we are in the same boat in the US........Trump....
now wait a minute..... let me think.....
the Nazis were Socialists (Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party). Hitler was an extreme socialist. Isn't that what we nowadays call as being on the "Left"?
Not let's look at Europe today....
Liberal immigration politics have changed many once beautiful places into sh*t-holes, as Trump would call them.....rampant crime....'no-go zones" for the police...rape epidemics....Europe is being destroyed!!!
Now, many people on the "right" are waking up. They are starting to organize....they want their home, their country, their society, their culture back. Unfortunately, the people on the "left' accuse those on the "right" as being "racists", "Nazis". But, are they?
sorry for this lengthy diatribe....just scratching my head.....the people in Europe... should they worry about the Left or the Right?
What about the US?
I usually don't respond to links from the rawstory site.... but this one got personal
Given that Nazism is traditionally held to be an extreme right-wing ideology, the party’s conspicuous use of the term “socialist” — which refers to a political system normally plotted on the far-left end of the ideological spectrum — has long been a source of confusion, not to mention heated debate among partisans seeking to distance themselves from the genocidal taint of Nazi Germany.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/
https://www.newsweek.com/nazis-democrats-socialists-alt-right-650572
Snopes is known to be strongly entrenched in the pro-Hillary camp. It's not surprising that they would bend over backwards to shine a different light on the events of the 30s in Europe
You mean shine a different light than the alt-right. The alt-right are the only ones that try to conflate the left (socialists) with the Nazis. Everyone else is smart enough to know better.
my parents were there. Hitler ran on a nationalist-socialist platform... the things he promised in his campaign speeches were extremely socialist.... no matter how you and your kind twist it around
My money is on Gunter in this discussion!
So, your mom & dad were Nazis? That explains a lot. I've wondered why you had such an affinity for Trump.
so now you are insulting my parents. They were never members of the Nazi Party. They were hardworking people, totally not interested in politics, trying to make a living, trying not to get in trouble with the Nazis.... as were most people in Germany at that time.
Now, since you insulted my family, I guess I have the right to call you a name, but that would put me on your level.
"Now, since you insulted my family, I guess I have the right to call you a name, but that would put me on your level."
The fact that you don't stoop to his level proves you are a class act, Gunter. Congratulations for your restraint.
I agree that Gunter is a class act and would never call names.
Very often, in a heated political debate, all it takes is one person controlling their emotions and responses to keep things under control.
With regards to mojo suggesting that Gunters parents might have been Nazi's when they lived in Germany during the Hitler Regime. It was a real party that had something like 12,000,000 members, so they actually could have been Nazi's.......but we (and mojo) now know, based on Gunter's response, that they WERE NOT Nazi's.
Back in the 1930's, Nazism was just another political party like Fascism was in Italy.
Since then, however, being associated with the Nazi party is very offensive to most people, so mojo should try to avoid intentionally offending another poster here when using that term.
"but we (and mojo) now know, based on Gunter's response, that they WERE NOT Nazi's."
Yes, and if mojo has an ounce of class he will apologize.
no, JP, mojo need not apologize. Metmike put everything into perspective, quite correctly.
Most people here in the US consider every adult male in Hitler's Germany a "Nazi". As metmike pointed out, about 12 mill (I didn't know these stats... I thought it would have been less) out of a population of 68 mill were actually members of the party. So, theoretically, my parents could have been Nazis... but they were not.
Once it became a dictatorship, those who didn't like Hitler and his politics, better watch their mouth. There were spies everywhere. If someone heard you object to Hitler's policies, you would most likely disappear. The "concentration camps" were not just for Jews.
I was told of an incident... on Hitler's birthday, everybody flew the German flag out of their window.... it was an ocean of flags down the street. One couple in my parents apartment building did not hang the flag out of their window. They disappeared 2 days later and were never seen again.
Often I hear people say....why didn't the people of Germany stop all this evilness? Well, if you didn't live there, it's easy to ask that question
I have a lot more to say on this subject, but this is already too much. Thanks JP and metmike
Sorry about that Gunter. It must have been very difficult times for you mom & dad to be living in Germany during the war & not being members of the Nazi Party. They were probably very fortunate to escape with their lives.
Sorry if I offended you.
Why are you not banned mojo, for personally attacking another board member?
"Why are you not banned mojo, for personally attacking another board member?"
Because all market forum members are equal, but some are more equal than others?
"Sorry if I offended you."
If you offended him? Of course you offended him, as well as the memory of his parents. Purposely! There's no "if" about it.
(My apologies in advance, Gunter -- this is my opinion, and I am not attempting to speak for you. You are quite capable, as we all know, of speaking for yourself).
"Why are you not banned mojo, for personally attacking another board member?"
"Because all market forum members are equal, but some are more equal than others?"
I very much appreciate the feedback/thoughts. It's the only way for me to tell whats going on in your heads. Please continue to let this flow freely.
I will always be completely transparent regarding my enforcement for proper conduct here, especially relating to respect for others when emotional politics are discussed.
I greatly encourage views from every position, especially if they differ from mine. I understand that most people have less tolerance of opposing views........it's human nature because we think they are wrong, so why waste time reading stuff that's obviously wrong(in our opinion).
For instance, if somebody tried to teach that 1+1=3, we would immediately flip the listening switch in our brains to off. Political views are not as definitive and provable as math but our brains work the same way. JP even made that point yesterday that nobody is ever going to change anybody else's mind here...........because everybody's mind is made up.
Don't include me in that mix. And as moderator, I also am committed to allowing all views to appear here. Even crazy ones that come from mojo, most of which I disagree with. However, those views also represent a very large segment of our country today. .
I will finish in a minute
How those views are communicated is especially important. Mojo is a troll for the most part and his mission here is to bash Trump. Most of you probably see him in the same vein as vandy was.
mojo has the Trump Derangement Syndrome that has swept thru the liberal community..............effecting a huge portion(tens of millions at least) of our country.
I've been watching the exact same thing for 2 decades regarding global warming/man made climate change. Everything is exaggerated and has a spin on to accomplish a political agenda with authentic science and facts not mattering.
Its the world we live in. This side is just using an effective marketing scheme to sensationalize speculation about bad stuff to turn it into a position worth fighting for.
However, I relish every opportunity to confront the flawed theories and wrong assumptions with authentic science and the empirical data to indisputably prove my points. If somebody disagrees with me, man, I want to know what they are thinking so I can show them the flaws in their belief system. Man made climate change is mostly a belief system(in global climate models).
Mojo is just spewing out the belief's of his belief system from the many, many sources(high priests) of this religion. CNN is probably its most powerful high priest. Think about it. CNN is one of the most powerful tv news networks in the world. I watch for amusement but it shows how huge this has become.
We are not the FOX MarketForum or catering to members that strongly gravitate towards the right. We are here for all views..........even deranged ones.
And you guys are adults that don't need to be sheltered from those views here. If we voted, that's probably where the majority would go.........to see only what you want to see. Political positions similar to your own.
Regarding personal attacks:
There is a world of difference between mojo and vandy. Vandy(who was banned 5 times by Alex) is a predator troll. He singles out individuals that he does not like and targets just them. Intentionally posting personal attacks to "yank their chains" His objective is to get thrills out of upsetting individuals that he doesn't like, then he brags about it openlywhen he is successful. You may remember when he tried to organize as many people here as possible to stop coming...........and completely failed. When I contacted him recently about his attacking posters, he was defiant, stating that he would continue to post this way because he was doing nothing wrong. Banning him was a super duper no brainer.
I read mojo differently. I did NOT contact mojo by email over the above incident or ask for an apology.............yet he provided one above. That confirms my read.
Mojo is a more of a general troll that has Trump Derangement Syndrome and feels compelled, like tens of millions of Americans to express themselves and their political views. In this case, he is picking on our (majority?) conservative MarketForum. If it wasn't Trump, he would probably be posting other views from the left.
I unbanned him less than 3 months ago and asked that he not get out of control. I did have to delete several of his posts awhile back when he was obviously out of control but he seems to be honoring my request. That will always be review-able.
Another factor is how much positive stuff the poster contributes. if they are a great positive contributor, they may never gets banned. A great positive contributor just would not act in a way that hurts the forum intentionally.
I called out mcfarm for calling Carl obtuse earlier in the week. mcfarm is a great positive contributor. His response by email confirmed that he is 100% on board with cooperating and helping the forum to grow...............the complete opposite of vandy.
I added below sentences.
Mcfarm will never be banned on this forum because he is doing too much to help it grow positively. The worst that can ever happen to him is that I delete posts of his.
I can say the same thing about almost everybody.
Tim had a post deleted but only because a poster that rarely comes here responded to it by calling Tim an A hole and I thought it best to get rid of both ends of the discussion. I explained this to Tim......who understood. Tim is one of many that will never be banned.
The other poster did the same thing again. I sent him a 2nd email with a warning and got no response. Barring that poster pationately pledging it will never happen again, if he does this again, it's 3 strikes and he's out.
Mcfarm, if he needed them, would be like the cat with 9 lives........but he won't because he sent me a nice email after I scolded him for calling Carl obtuse.
mojo does not contribute like mcfarm. If he would make a habit out of using personal attacks with no remorse, his status here would be seriously scrutinized.
And there is the argument for the rule of law vs. majority rule.
I could have sworn that the law, as in the forum guide was:
I am strongly of the opinion that calling others a nazi is a personal attack. There is another "n" word, that none dare utter, and my opinion is that both are equally vile. If anyone called someone the other "n" word here, do you think anything but a prompt and likely permanent banishment would follow?
Perhaps the forum guide should be amended to read:
I can't disagree. MOJO is on the line and often crosses it with personal attacks.
I was referring to the closing remarks MM was making. Essentially, the Forum is not really a popularity contest where we vote people on and off the island based on how much we like what they have to say. That would make for a very short lived forum, IMO.
Simple rules like civil discourse need to exist and be followed. Mike gives a lot of latitude and gives many warnings before pulling the trigger, but we have seen he will pull the trigger. I think this thread contains an informal warning or two. History shows more formal warnings, if required, will follow.
I can't disagree with that approach either.
Appreciate your opinions. I have covered most of this in my 2 long winded previous posts.
JP,
You remember my analogy about the cop pulling over a person going over the posted speed limit?
With regards to the posted rule that you copied. As MarketForum moderator, I am using my 62 years of interactions with people of all kinds, an understanding of what drives many of their actions, observations of their actions, including responses to me when something unacceptable occurs, respect for everyone, best interest of MarketForum and a policy that welcomes all people with all views........some not necessarily in the preferred form.
so mojo suggested that Gunters parents, because they lived in Germany when over 1/3 of the people there were fascists....were Fascists...........then apologized after when he found out they were not(after being confronted by me).
I am not even considering this worth a warning, let alone banning. You/me may not like the crapola and sources that mojo brings here (I agree with Gunter about Snopes having turned very liberally biased) but you are big boys/girls and have plenty of opportunities to discredit him/them.
As mentioned, if mojo gets carried away as he has done a few times in the past, I will reign him in based on what's appropriate using my gut.
Regardless, my decisions and reasoning will always be transparent and you are welcome to object................and to expect a thoughtful response.
Hi metmike
I have to admit, I first was quite upset when mojo called my parents Nazis. Yet, your description of the situation in 1930s Germany made me see things from mojo's view.
As you said, at the beginning, the Nazi party was just a political party, as they have them in all democratic countries. At that time no one knew how bad things would turn out. Germany was in a mess, after just having suffered through a destructive hyperinflation. There was a huge gap between the rich and the working poor. A socialist who promised them everything sounded great to the masses. Of course, as history shows us, it quickly turned into a dictatorship that became more and more evil.
therefore, I can understand mojo's comment...my parents could have been Nazi members, and I wrote 'no apology necessary". He apologized anyway, and I appreciate that.
metmike, your comments in this thread show a lot of wisdom and fairness. The forum couldn't have found a better successor to Alex than you.
"I did NOT contact mojo by email over the above incident or ask for an apology.............yet he provided one above. That confirms my read."
Let's suppose that I let lose with a barrage of curse words and insults directed toward you, your parentage, your spouse, any siblings or children you might have, and then said "I'm sorry if you took offense at any of this." Is that an apology? Hell no. It's weasel words designed to feign an apology.
"I'm sorry for what I said" is an apology, "I'm sorry if you took offense at what I said" is by no means an apology -- it puts the blame on the offended, not the offender.
There's no need for you to respond to this. It's apparent we don't see eye to eye on the particulars of this situation, and that's fine.
It undoubtedly sucks at times to be the forum moderator, and I'm glad it's you, not me in the position!
P.S. You keep editing your posts above! For sure https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/9340/#9456 (plus others in this thread as well, as far as I determine). How am I supposed to respond intelligently to your @%&#()*@&$-(@$)*(& comments if you keep changing them? And don't tell me I do the same thing, even if I do, because that would be deeply insulting!
A question regarding the outcome after the dust has settled on this issue.
Who comes out on top?
1. Gunter shows that he's a class act.................everybody agrees.
2. Mojo, commits what is considered a personal attack on Gunters parents from 80 years ago(questionable in my opinion but other opinions matter). Mojo is confronted and responds exactly as a moderator would hope for..............he apologizes to Gunter on his own. Whether you dislike mojo and his message, or believe his apology was sincere, that act shows a willingness to follow rules and respect others. I have always felt him to be in a different category in this realm compared to the predator vandy.
3. metmike? Obviously, many of you would have done things differently but I relish the opportunity to have intelligent discourse about issues that matter. Politics may have triggered the discussion but the real discussion was about ETHICS.
4. MarketForum. A discussion of this policy and how/why it gets or doesn't get enforced helps everybody to understand, what almost everybody already understood.
Who comes out a loser?
Nobody. Even if you think mojo should have been banned and the wrong decision was made, his apology must have been a (pleasant) surprise.
"P.S. You keep editing your posts above! For sure https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/9340/#9456 (plus others in this thread as well, as far as I determine). How am I supposed to respond intelligently to your @%&#()*@&$-(@$)*(& comments if you keep changing them? And don't tell me I do the same thing, even if I do, because that would be deeply insulting!"
JP,
There are 3 reasons that I edit.
1. Because there is an issue with crashed tabs for me on this site that happens randomly..............and I have long winded posts...........if I am near the end of one and the tab crashes, I lose everything. So I often type for several minutes as fast as I can then save it.
2. Also after submitting it I often go back to the trading forum or to weather maps or to commodity charts/quotes and my trading, then come back to finish.
I am doing it right now bye
You didn't even know that i was gone but I hit the edit button to get back in to finish this post after I did some other important business. I already spend hours a day posting here and this enables me to do other things at the same time.
ok, I am leaving for a minute bye
I am back to finish this post using the edit button. While I was gone for several minutes, I looked at weather maps and posted this on the trading forum
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By metmike - Aug. 2, 2018, 2:13 p.m.
Last 12z GFS ensemble mean also looks very impressive with upper level heat ridge across the south and even the southeast.
Where was I........oh yes.
3. I also use the edit button to correct spelling an grammatical mistakes when reading over a post.
Sorry if this causes you to become discombobulated.
What I do NOT do is completely change previous statements or weather forecasts after I realize that they were a mistake.
I will not go back to yesterdays weather forecast for instance and alter what I stated then, after it busts badly today.
I will update the next forecast accordingly but allow my previous mistakes to stand.
On the description of the above weather map, when i went back to look at it, I realized that i should have done a better job and changed the wording slightly to:
"Last 12z GFS ensemble mean also looks pretty impressive with upper level heat ridge across the south and even the southeast for late in week 2."
Adding the time frame at the end and changing very impressive to pretty impressive as i thought about what the better adjective would be a bit more..........because I was done here and had more time to think about it.
one more quick comment from me, since I was involved heavily in this thread....
JP, metmike, and others, please don't come down hard on mojo. He is only reflecting common misconceptions about this ugly time in modern history. Besides, he apologized, and I consider this apology to be sincere.
If Obama was here now, he would say (as he has done before) "lets sit down together and have a beer"
Just more evidence of you being a class guy.
I also think that Gunter accepting mojo's apology will make mojo much less likely to want to attack him in the future.
The best way to turn a foe into a friend is to extend the hand of friendship.
Me giving mojo the benefit of the doubt and defending his right to be here will make him even more likely to cooperate.
But I also sensed that about him when I unbanned him shortly after arriving. His exact words were "I won't let you down"
That doesn't mean that he still doesn't need to be reigned in at times but it shows that he is on board with us trying to make the forum a better place(not just a conservative place)
Tim,
I appreciate your great thoughts in this thread very much and am not ignoring them.
a little message
In my limited experience in management over the last 3 or 4 decades, I've learned that people tend to live up, or down to your expectations. It doesn't always work.. But it's almost always the best place to start. Make the direction clear, establish some basic ground rules and offer as little guidance as possible.
That's how you build the best team possible. And, whether you realize it or not, the Market Forum community is a team
"Market Forum community is a team"
Exactly Tim!
It's your forum and you make it what it is.