This 30-minute podcast from the Times of Israel is very illuminating. I encourage all who are interested in the conflict to listen in. No Mike, this has NOTHING to do with who is right or wrong, or defending Israel's heavy-handed response to Oct 7th (although 10/7 caused the numbers to shift).
Those polled included 800 Palestinians living in the West Bank, 400 Palestinians living in Gaza, Jewish citizens of Israel, and Palestinian citizens of Israel.
I found 2 things very interesting. The mirror images of both people in attitudes towards each other. About the same percentage of people think all the land belongs to them. About the same % of Palestinians and Israelis think the other side wants to eliminate them. The most pessimistic were young people on both sides. (about 20% being hopeful)
But what resonated with me was that the most optimistic group by far was Palestinians living as citizens in Israel proper. By a majority, they still believe peace is possible. This makes sense if you think about it. They are the only ones living on. both sides of the divide. They have neighbors and coworkers who are Jews and they probably have friends and family living in the West Bank and Gaza. And because of this, they see the humanity of both sides.
I'm reminded of the way attitudes towards gays in this country shifted in the last 30 years. The more people who came out of the closet the more the anti-gay citizens were able to recognize the humanity of the gay people among them. "Uncle Fred is gay and he's a good guy." etc...
There's much more in the podcast and those who are interested in the subject should give it a listen.
Thanks, joj!
Great stuff!
12 September 2024
Poll Summary Report
Palestinian-Israeli Pulse: A Joint Poll
October the 7th and the current war produce massive fears of genocide,
overwhelming mutual distrust and dehumanization; the events reduce
support for a two-state peace solution among Israeli Jews while increasing
it among Palestinians, but still only a minority support it on each side.
Over 60 percent on both sides prefer a regional peace based on a two-state
solution and normalization if the alternative is a regional, multi-front war.
Incentives remain capable of reversing the hardline views producing
strong majorities among both sides for a peace package that permanently
ends the conflict
Palestinian support for the two-state solution is higher than the support for all other
alternatives but more Israeli Jews support one unequal state under Israeli rule than the two-
state solution; a trend that began in December 2022 and pre-dates the war. Unexpectedly,
one-sided incentives are found to dramatically change the grim picture: the incentives raise
support for a two-state solution peace package to a majority on both sides.
These are the results of Palestinian-Israeli Pulse: A Joint Poll conducted by the Palestinian Center
for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in Ramallah and the International Program in Conflict
Resolution and Mediation at Tel Aviv University with funding from the Netherlands Representative
Office in Ramallah and the Representative Office of Japan to Palestine through UNDP/PAPP. The
joint poll was conducted during July 2024
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Doesn't give us much hope
Previous thread:
New war with Israel
47 responses |
Started by metmike - July 28, 2024, 8:29 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/106237/
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https://apnews.com/live/lebanon-syria-pagers-hezbollah-updates
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For those that continue to support these continued escalating actions, what is your end point?
I understand the justification but there needs to be a viable plan which results in Israel surviving not it's demise, which is where this is potentially headed.
Instead of continuing to repeat the "Israel has the right to defend itself" mantra, how is doing this helping Israel to survive, when there is no plan......except to keep doing this, escalating and making things worse, month after month after month (to keep the madman in power).
You must realize that this is draining Israel's resources and taking a toll on their citizens peace of mind and safety and CANNOT be sustained forever without the negatives, continuing to accelerate with no offsetting positives.
The trend is NOT Israel's friend.
This is NOT my wish but its clearly where things are headed, unless Netanyahu is replaced or Israel adjusts their current strategy.
I don't have a magic wand or crystal ball with all the answers but its crystal clear that this path is the exact WRONG one.
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I can't help but be reminded of this expression.........only applied to the country of Israel right now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingchi
https://theconversation.com/israel-11-months-of-war-have-battered-the-countrys-economy-237915
With the fighting in Gaza showing no sign of letting up, and the conflict with Hezbollah on the Lebanese border intensifying, the Bank of Israel has estimated that the war’s cost will reach US$67 billion by 2025. Even with a US$14.5 billion military aid package from the US, Israel’s finances may not be enough to cover these expenses.
This means that Israel will face tough choices about how to allocate its resources. It might, for instance, need to cut spending in some areas of the economy or take on more debt. More borrowing will make loan repayments larger and more costly to service in the future.
Israel’s deteriorating fiscal situation has prompted big credit rating agencies to downgrade the country’s status. Fitch lowered Israel’s credit score from A+ to A in August on the grounds that an increase in its military spending had contributed to a widening of the fiscal deficit to 7.8% of GDP in 2024, up from 4.1% the year before.
It could also potentially jeopardise Israel’s ability to maintain its current military strategy. This strategy, which involves sustained operations in Gaza aimed at destroying Hamas, requires boots on the ground, advanced weaponry and constant logistical support – all of which come at a great financial cost.
This is obviously something Israel is doing intentionally. They are vastly increasing incentive by everybody in the Middle East to eliminate Israel. I don't buy the argument that this emotion towards Israel was already maxed out before the war in Gaza. Acts of antisemitism around the world have almost tripled during this period. Again, the facts speak clearly for themselves about this with an incredibly powerful causation ratio, not just coincidental.
Again, where is this headed?
What is the plan?
So, who was responsible for the pager explosions that killed 6 and injured over 2K? If Israel did this, is this acceptable? They were supposed to be going after Hezbollah terrorists.
Joj? Mike? Anyone else?
The plan is to keep Netanyahu in power as long as possible, pretending that he is going to eliminate Hamas, Hezbollah or other enemies, while he abuses his far more powerful military and technological advantages to decimate as much enemy, Palestinian/Muslim human life, quality of life and support for life that he can doing it, while maximizing the suffering and punishment to them.
Regardless of what form that life takes(children/women or innocent).
Would he be doing this if his enemies had the same military/technology?
One of the biggest selling points in the US and Israel for doing this is NOT ethics or what's right or humanity........it's because we have an order of magnitude greater power that we can use to do it with impunity, along with a very offensive assumption of ethnic superiority over the people we can do it to.
Their deaths are just numbers on the screen. Units with no humanity or consideration for them needing the same things that we do to survive. Same feelings. Same basic requirements for survival. Family relationships. Hopes for a better future.
When one of ours dies or is kidnapped or injured, the entire country mourns.
When 10,000 of theirs die..........its just a price we decided they need to pay for our diabolical agenda.
Morally deprived people in our country that are part of the military-industrial-political-media complex that greatly benefit from this and act as information gatekeepers using propaganda to convince the rest of us that this is actually a good thing to do.
We go to our favorite information sources that tell us what we wish was true and what they want us to believe.
Larry,
It's clear that Israel did this.
Pretty clever trick?
The New York Times reported that Israel hid explosive material in the Taiwan-made Gold Apollo pagers before they were imported to Lebanon, citing American and other officials briefed on the operation. The material was implanted next to the battery with a switch that could be triggered remotely to detonate.
The Palestinian militant group Hamas, which is waging war with Israel in Gaza, said the pager blasts were an "escalation" that will only lead Israel to "failure and defeat".
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Wouldn't doctors and emergency personal and others critical to society in Lebanon be using pagers like this too?
This seems more like an act of state sponsored terrorism to me.
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Just another element to an extraordinarily complicated and seemingly impossible to resolve negative dynamics based mostly on the mentalities of the opposing sides.
However, in the late 70's, nobody thought the Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt was possible.
https://www.aipac.org/resources/eyptian-israeli-peace-treaty-bkxyg-apblj-j2mel
“No more wars, no more bloodshed. Peace unto you. Shalom, Salaam, forever.” —Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, treaty signing ceremony, March 26, 1979
“Let there be no more wars and bloodshed between Arabs and Israelis.” —Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, treaty signing ceremony, March 26, 1979
“During the past 30 years, Israel and Egypt have waged war. But for the past 16 months, these same two great nations have waged peace. Today we celebrate a victory—not of a bloody military campaign, but of an inspiring peace campaign. Two leaders who will loom large in the history of nations, President Anwar al-Sadat and Prime Minister Menachem Begin, have conducted this campaign with all the courage, tenacity, brilliance, and inspiration of any generals who have ever led men and machines into the field of battle.” —U.S. President Jimmy Carter, treaty signing ceremony, March 26, 1979
On March 26, 1979, less than six years after waging a bloody war against Israel, President Anwar Sadat of Egypt met with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin to sign a peace treaty brokered by U.S. President Jimmy Carter. It was the first peace agreement Israel had signed with any Arab country and has survived several major geopolitical crises. Building on the relationship built by the treaty, Egypt and Israel maintain close military and intelligence cooperation in the Sinai and have recently concluded a major natural gas deal.
Beyond the direct benefits to the two signatories, the peace treaty has positively affected Israel’s relations with its other Arab neighbors, none of which has engaged in war with Israel since the treaty was signed. Israel’s Oslo Accords with the Palestinians; peace treaty with Jordan; and multiple ties with Gulf Arab nations and North African Arab countries—none of these would have been possible without the precedent of Egypt, the Arab world’s most populous and powerful nation, signing a peace agreement with Israel.
The Peace Treaty: Product of Exceptional Leadership
The peace treaty would not have come into being without the opportune coincidence of extraordinary leaders in all three relevant countries: Israel, Egypt and the United States. To achieve peace, Prime Minister Begin made the most tangible concession: Bucking fierce domestic opposition, he agreed to return to Egypt the entire Sinai Peninsula, evacuating 10,000 settlers, abandoning oil fields Israel itself had discovered and developed, and relinquishing two major airbases. President Sadat risked his life in making peace with Israel; he was assassinated less than three years later. And President Carter exerted powerful leadership in cajoling Begin and Sadat into sealing the deal, expending long periods of time and prodigious efforts in shuttling between the two leaders and engaging them on every detail of the complex negotiations. All three leaders were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords
| Framework for Peace in the Middle East and Framework for the Conclusion of a Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel | |
|---|---|
 Celebrating the signing of the Camp David Accords: Menachem Begin, Jimmy Carter, Anwar Sadat | |
| Type | Bilateral treaty |
| Signed | 17 September 1978[1] |
| Location | Washington, D.C., United States |
| Signatories | |
| Parties | |
| Ratifiers | |
| Language | |
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https://www.newsweek.com/more-wireless-devices-hezbollah-explode-beirut-lebanon-1955747
Taiwan-based Gold Apollo said Hungary-based BAC was licensed to use its brand, as the militant group Hezbollah said there would be a “severe reckoning” over the blasts.
Al Jazeera traces a pager supply chain from Taiwan to Hungary to Lebanon — including a three-month port layover during which explosives might have been placed in the devices.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/18/how-did-hezbollah-get-the-pagers-that-exploded-in-lebanon
https://www.newsweek.com/us-reacts-exploding-pager-attacks-blamed-mossad-1955709
"Time and again" when the U.S. and other international mediators believe themselves to be making progress in a ceasefire deal for Israel and Hamas' war in Gaza, "we've seen an event that makes the process more difficult, might derail it," Blinken said.
The U.S. government is yet to remark on the second wave of attacks
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-820817
Final count of the UN decision to demand Israel end 'unlawful' presence in Palestinian territories within 12 months. (credit: Via Maariv)
The vote speaks for itself.
124 (in favor) is a number almost 9 times greater than 14(against) .
The vast majority of the world disagrees with the US and Israel propaganda that we get, telling us that what Israel is doing in Gaza is defending itself.
Enough for the UN to vote on a resolution demanding that Israel stop it.
Really, there were only 14 countries out of 181 countries that took a stand for Israel that supports what they are doing.
Less than 8% of the world agrees with us.
Reading and listening to the media in the US, especially sources like Fox News, one would assume it's the exact opposite. In fact, we are going on a year and Fox continues, every hour of every day, when discussing this topic,m to focus only on Oct. 7 and claim that everything else is Israel, justifiably defending itself. EVERY incident, EVERY place no matter what is Israel, justifiable defending itself with impunity.
The exploding devices were a very clever trick.
Did they bring Israel closer to peace or war in Lebanon?
What benefits happened from doing this?
What were the negative impacts, besides all the deaths and injuries?
I've spent a few days thinking about the exploding communication devices, not sure on how to interpret it and not sure if we have all the information.
However, right now I'm going with this being completely justified as Israel defending itself.
Unlike the innocent people in Gaza that are being obliterated indiscriminately, the majority being children and women with collective punishment.
These communications devices, apparently were almost all used by Hezbollah, so Israel fine tuned the specific target/enemy. Destroying a key device used to communicate which is how they plan attacks on Israel.
Of course there were a lot of innocent people injured and some killed but in this case, I think its an unavoidable casualty of war.
Will it escalate the tensions and make things worse?
Maybe to probably but in this case, I'm actually impressed with what Israel did to take out specific devices being used by an enemy trying to hurt/destroy Israel and feel its absolutely justified.
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If we find out that more than half the victims were doctors and emergency responders, then it’s not as justified.
Its tough to get the truth in todays news world but as I understand it, Hezbollah wanted to avoid detection by Israel which was easy to do by Israel tracking cell phones.
supposedly, this resulted in Hezbollah ordering these devices that can’t be tracked.
supposedly, the manner in which they were ordered clearly identifies the users as Hezbollah.
im thinking that doctors and medical people all have their own past sources for pagers that they already owned and it’s only these new ones from the same source this year that were all loaded with the explosives before being shipped, that Israel detonated.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0e1wpr0q44o
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Experts told NBC News that supply chain interruptions have a long history in espionage, but not in attacks that cause mass casualties.
