This one deserves it's own title. It's going to be around for awhile.
Re: will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By WxFollower - July 11, 2025, 10:26 a.m.
2. Can you explain why Bondi and Trump are suddenly poopooing the Jeffrey Epstein files release after earlier saying they would be released ASAP? Are they now hiding something? Doesn’t that seem weird/inconsistent?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
An irate attorney general is said to have confronted the deputy director of the F.B.I. at a tense White House meeting earlier in the week
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/11/us/politics/jeffrey-epstein-pam-bondi-dan-bongino-clash.html
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EPSTEIN
Started by 12345 - June 4, 2023, 4:31 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95882/
THIS WOMAN REALLY PUTS HER LIFE ON THE LINE!!
Started by 12345 - May 5, 2023, 6:49 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/94955/
Jeffrey Epstein's former pilot testifies
Started by metmike - Dec. 1, 2021, 12:42 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/78526/
Epstein corruption
38 responses |
Started by wglassfo - Aug. 17, 2019, 11:47 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/37051/
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I spent numerous hours investigating this with evidence in that last thread that leave me convinced that this could not have been a suicide.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/37051/#37156
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/37051/#37890
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/37051/#45629
The medical evidence of a very forceful break to his neck does NOT match up with how he supposedly committed suicide(with a bed sheet and leaning forward). Just coincidentally, the camera's going to his ward/cell all just happened to malfunction that night and/or accidentally the video was not saved.
Initially, the prison tried to substitute the video from another part of the prison to try to trick investigators into believing that nobody unauthorized entered Epstein's cell.
People only doctor evidence when they have something to hide!!!!!!!
He WAS killed based on some impossible to explain, very compelling evidence and critical thinking.
I don't care who says otherwise. That evidence can't be explained.
We can all speculate on why and why they still won't release everything but just have to assume that, like with many diabolical acts being covered up by the rich and powerful, we will NEVER know.
Again, I don't buy into conspiracy theories...........I BUST THEM.
When authentic facts and evidence strongly support something, it's NOT a conspiracy theory.
Re: Re: Re: Re: will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By mcfarm - July 11, 2025, 8:28 p.m.
no Larry I have little info on the Epstein deal. I thought by now lots of info would of been released if it was possible without infringing on rules and rights. Seems a few got ahead of the pace of the case and over hyped to me but I am a lowly dirt farmer from middle America.
will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By metmike - July 12, 2025, 3:56 p.m.
I forgot to add this previous thread, which probably explains why Trump doesn't want the Epstein files released.
I'm not suggesting that because President Trump flew aboard Epstein's private plane that anything nefarious took place, there is ZERO evidence to support that but its likely that SOME of the celebrities WERE participating in that part of his business.
However, nobody knows who did what with Epstein(the not released files might shed light into that) and when you don't know anything.............its the perfect environment for SPECULATION.
If Trump was innocent of any wrongdoing but DID fly with Epstein, his adversaries will pounce on that fact to SPECULATE and
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/78526/
Jeffrey Epstein
Started by metmike - Dec. 1, 2021, 12:42 a.m.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/30/us/ghislaine-maxwell-pilot/index.html
(CNN)Jeffrey Epstein's former pilot testified in Ghislaine Maxwell's sex trafficking trial Tuesday that a who's who of powerful men, including former Presidents Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, flew aboard Epstein's private plane.
The pilot, Larry Visoski, said he would typically be given notice if Clinton or high-profile passengers like him would be flying.
He recalled renowned violinist Itzhak Perlman flew to Michigan with Epstein for the Interlochen Center for the Arts summer camp. He said he remembered Prince Andrew, Maine Sen. George Mitchell, Ohio Sen. John Glenn and actor Kevin Spacey on flights.
He also said he'd fly Epstein to Columbus, Ohio, where Epstein also had property, to see billionaire businessman Les Wexner. Epstein referred to Wexner as his client but Visoski said he believed them to be friends as well.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/29/us/ghislaine-maxwell-trial-starts/index.html
Re: Re: will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By mcfarm - July 15, 2025, 11:52 a.m.
looks like all the hopes of the tds may implode. Maxwell rumors are she will tell all including where, when, who and how, Finally some answers from someone that should know
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Re: Re: Re: will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By metmike - July 15, 2025, 12:10 p.m.
Thanks, mcfarm for something I didn't know!
The former Jeffrey Epstein associate is currently serving a 20-year sentence
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1. If this isn't a ploy to make a deal with prosecutors to get out of prison early, then the earth is being destroyed by climate change
Surely this lady DOES know things but she's NOT a very reliable/objective source because of the self serving motivation driving this offer. Its uncertain why she didn't offer that information previously but the current fanfare, certainly is the main factor driving this offer that would very likely include her getting some of her sentence going away.
2. She would have no insider knowledge about who killed Jeffrey Epstein.
3. jeffrey Epstein's pilot already testified under oath who was on Epstein's plane when he flew Epstein's friends around. Not as good as a "clients" lists but we know who was on the plane and where they went. The pilot was a very credible source.
4. We can only speculate but since Donald Trump was on that place for sure, this is why he doesn't want the information released. His many adversaries could use it against him. I don't think that Trump was on the clients list but have no idea and my "don't think" is based on ZERO evidence and a wild guess, giving Trump the benefit of the doubt. However, Trump's resistance to releasing the information makes me even less confident in that GUESS.
Re: Re: Re: will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By metmike - July 16, 2025, 8:18 p.m.
More evidence that President Trump is mentally ill AND GETTING WORSE!!!
We don’t know what’s in the Jeffrey Epstein files, but we now know it’s so bad for President Donald Trump that he’ll turn on his rabidly loyal MAGA base, mocking them as “stupid” and “weaklings,” to keep it hidden.
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President Trump lashed out Wednesday at “weaklings” and “past supporters” in his base who he said were buying in to the “Jeffrey Epstein Hoax,” raging that he doesn’t even “want their support anymore.”
“Unlike Republicans, they [Democrats] stick together like glue. Their new SCAM is what we will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein Hoax, and my PAST supporters have bought into this ‘bulls—,’ hook, line, and sinker,” Trump wrote on Truth Social.
“Let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats[‘] work, don’t even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I don’t want their support anymore! Thank you for your attention to this matter. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!”
“They haven’t learned their lesson, and probably never will, even after being conned by the Lunatic Left for 8 long years,” Trump added on Truth Social Wednesday.
“I have had more success in 6 months than perhaps any President in our Country’s history, and all these people want to talk about, with strong prodding by the Fake News and the success starved Dems, is the Jeffrey Epstein Hoax.”
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We can all dream that enough Rs would get the gonads to join with Ds to IMPEACH this mentally ill and dangerous president.
However, things can and may get worse. He's only been in office for 6 months. His approval ratings are going to drop even more after this. There are half a dozen legit reasons to impeach Donald Trump. This isn't one of them.
By metmike - July 16, 2025, 8:27 p.m.
Fox news coverage on this?
"Bernie Sanders is a communist"
"Barrack Obama is an idiot about men"
"Hunter Biden, bla bla bla"
"Joe Biden, bla bla bla"
will clapper. comey, brennan finally get theirs?
By metmike - July 16, 2025, 8:39 p.m.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-a-closer-look-60-minutes-2020-01-05/
Among the injuries found on Epstein during the autopsy are contusions on both wrists, an abrasion on his left forearm, and deep muscle hemorrhaging in his left shoulder muscle. Photos 60 Minutes reviewed also show an injury to the back of his neck, a cut on his lip, and an injection mark in his arm
Dr. Baden said small burst capillaries, known as petechiae, found on Epstein's face, mouth, and eyes are often an indication of strangulation. But it was injuries to Epstein's neck that make Dr. Baden call into question the official ruling of suicide.
Autopsy photos show fractures of the left and right thyroid cartilage, which sits at the front of the neck, and the left hyoid bone, a u-shaped bone that sits under the jaw and acts as an anchor for the tongue.
"I have never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging," Dr. Baden tells Alfonsi on the broadcast. He added: "Going over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York City state prisons over the past 40–50 years, no one had three fractures."
But photos of the noose taken in as evidence and presumably thought to be responsible for killing Epstein show both ends of the noose folded and hemmed, not cut. Sources have told 60 Minutes that the guard who found Epstein cut him down before trying to revive him.
"It doesn't look like anybody ever took scissors to it," Alfonsi said. "So there is some question—is that the right noose?'
Federal prosecutors have charged the two guards who were on duty on the overnight shift the morning Epstein was found. Michael Thomas, who alone found Epstein's body, and Tova Noel face charges of making false records, conspiring to make false records, and conspiring to defraud the United States. Both have pleaded not guilty.
Her firing comes as Attorney General Pam Bondi faces intense criticism from some members of Trump’s base for the Justice Department’s decision not to release any more evidence in the government’s possession from Epstein’s sex trafficking investigation. Some right-wing internet personalities, like Laura Loomer, who have been critical of Bondi’s handling of the Epstein files had been calling for Maurene Comey’s firing.
A woman claims Trump raped her at a party in 1994 when she was just 13 years old.
Donald Trump is accused of having forcible sex with the plaintiff while attending a party at the NYC apartment of convicted billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, according to the complaint. The plaintiff also claims that Epstein raped her twice at two such parties.
Two witnesses provided affidavits filed by the plaintiff under the names "Joan Doe" and "Tiffany Doe" that back up the woman's story.
"Joan Doe" claims that the plaintiff told her about the assaults in 1994–95 shortly after they are alleged to have occurred
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.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770
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I'll give President Trump the benefit of the doubt on actual guilt here but show it because it explains his sensitivity on this topic. The investigation and report would likely have included this and Trump does NOT want it out, even if he's innocent because his adversaries will jump on hit. This is speculation by me.
There could be far more in the Epstein files that included Trump.
What we know for sure is that Trump is in there and he doesn't want the public to know about it.
White House has come under fire for not releasing documents related to late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/15/republicans-jeffrey-epstein-files-release
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5404619-republican-support-jeffrey-epstein-legislation/
https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-victims-attorney-talks-about-donald-trump-claims-1857298
Ok MM your tds is getting more of a paranoia. Day after day any article you can find trying to show Trump in any bad light. Well it took me all of 2 seconds to find this interview with Epsteins lawyer. He could not find one connection to Epstein and in fact goes on to defend Trump and his behavior. Now if anyone truly knows what went on with Epstein this guy surly would...not CNN, MSNBC or Whoopi for that matter. You are supposed to be the fact finder here not some rumor monger but when it comes to Trump an rumor lately is what you report.
Thanks much, mcfarm!
Your link confirms exactly my position and previous posts.
TDS???
This was my statement:
"I'll give President Trump the benefit of the doubt on actual guilt here but show it because it explains his sensitivity on this topic."
I'll let the facts and your post defending Trump that actually confirms the relationship between Epstein and Trump that is what I speculate Trump is so sensitive over speak for itself.
How about TAS?
Trump Adoration Syndrome!
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Actually, after reading your story, I'm LESS inclined to give President Trump the benefit of the doubt. Did you actually read the article? It might have taken you 2 minutes to find it but you forgot to take another 2 minutes to read the entire article!!
Trump lavished praise on Epstein in a 2002 interview with New York Magazine, which took place before the financier pleaded guilty as part of a 2008 plea deal to soliciting prostitution from a person under 18. Speaking to the publication he said: "I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy.
"He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it—Jeffrey enjoys his social life."
++++++++++++++++++
mcfarm,
Would you like to see this information released?
I think Trump's justice department MIGHT end up releasing it but they will doctor it to extract any parts that have Trump in and then present it as everything. No way the authoritarian would ever allow objective facts to be released by his minions that show anything he doesn't approve of.
Thanks again for the article, mcfarm!
I've dialed that into my objective understanding of this situation and am now more suspicious of Trump because of his much closer relationship to Epstein than I knew about before.
well who knew about the 2008 crap in 2002. Nobody. Again the Epstein lawyer goes thru it all and paints a vastly different story including doubting remarks by trump way before any others were commenting. I do not think is any way harmed by libs trying to establish more crazy crap on Trump. As I have said right here on this site Trump does plenty of painful things all himself he needs little help from libs.
Last I checked, the Wall Street Journal is not a bastion for Trump bashing libs.
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https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/17/politics/epstein-birthday-letter-trump
+++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-birthday-letter-jeffrey-epstein-wall-street-journal-2100495
The president told the Journal in a Tuesday interview: "This is not me. This is a fake thing. It's a fake Wall Street Journal story. I never wrote a picture in my life. I don't draw pictures of women. It's not my language. It's not my words."
He also said he would file a lawsuit against the newspaper, which is owned by conservative media mogul Rupert Murdoch, if it published the story:
"I'm gonna sue The Wall Street Journal just like I sued everyone else," he said, according to the newspaper.
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Man, oh man what a tough choice. Who to believe???
The Wall Street Journal? or Donald Trump??
Let me think about this.
1. I don't belong to MAGA
2. I can do critical thinking and use the scientific method as a scientist
3. I don't affiliate with either party
4. Donald Trump's history, that established his credibility during his first term is below and he's even WORSE during his 2nd term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wall_Street_Journal
As of 2023, The Wall Street Journal is the largest newspaper in the United States by print circulation, with 609,650 print subscribers. It has 3.17 million digital subscribers, the second-most in the nation after The New York Times.[1] The newspaper is one of the United States' newspapers of record.[2][3] The first issue of the newspaper was published on July 8, 1889.[4] The editorial page of the Journal is typically center-right in its positions.[5][6][7][8] The newspaper has won 39 Pulitzer Prizes.[9][10][11]
"libs trying to establish more crazy crap on Trump"
mcfarm, I hate to tell ya but your claim, as usual that the source is libs and people with TDS trying to destroy Trump doesn't make any sense when the Wall Street Journal is leading the charge this time.
Trump said he had personally warned the Journal’s owner, Rupert Murdoch, and its editor in chief, Emma Tucker, that the letter was “fake,” calling the story “false, malicious, and defamatory.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/07/17/trump-epstein-lawsuit-wall-street-journal-letter-00461871
Mike Pence is latest prominent figure to call for release of files on sex offender once close to president
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/17/trump-jeffrey-epstein-republicans-maga
Still, House Republicans voted twice this week to block Democratic attempts to force the public release of all Epstein files within 30 days, with only one Republican, Ralph Norman of South Carolina, voting in favor.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What does that tell us?
1. Donald Trump is going bonkers over the Epstein investigation and has refused to authorize releasing the documents.If there was nothing in their to hurt Trump he would be ok with it.
2. The Ds are trying to get the Epstein files released and the Rs are blocking them. Clearly, the Rs would not block this unless they feel strongly there's stuff in there to hurt Trump or they are afraid of what Trump might do to them individually if they don't block it.
So I heard the best question asked about the Epstein deal. And it puts the lie to most every avenue and dead end that MM has gone down with his tds rants. Just why after the crazed libs have tried every dirty trick including the biggest scandal in American political history {Russia Russia Russia} for over a decade to get Trump did they not come out with all this secret incriminating stuff on Trump when they totally controlled the so called files, information, investigation whatever it was....for 4 damn years. Pretty simple isn't it, if they had they would of gladly used it and you know it.
Again I was not there and know nothing but I sure heard what Epstein's lawyer said
Do you really want me to remind you just where the Times was on Russia, Hillary and Obama, brennan and comey?????????
thanks, mcfarm!
You ignored the most important items.
It was the Rs that promised to release the information when they got control of the white house/congress.
You must be aware that Clinton is on this list and maybe some other Ds. Why would they be gung ho to hang their own people?
When Trump was doing this, he was a democrat, ironically. Maybe you’re not aware that Donald Trump has changed his political party 5 times.
Trump is a self serving opportunist. He pretends to be whatever he needs to be in order to maximize his own enrichment and personal agendas.
He found out how to maximize the number of gullible people by taking on his current persona.
I already knew this when I voted for him but believed he would end the war in Ukraine quickly.
Man, did he ever botch that one too!
Is this being TDS??
Voting for somebody because they promised something, then holding them accountable for failing to do what they promised?
I thought that was just common sense and objectivity.
Which brings us back to this issue. however you want to spin it, Trump did hang out with Epstein and clearly he knew what Epstein was doing with young girls and his descriptions of it in interviews and to Epstein were complimentary and suggested this was something they had in common and shared together. This is not stretching it because of what I would like to believe. It's pretty obvious from the credible evidence.
Trump doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt from me anymore. Too much evidence, including yours that he was an insider of Epsteins.
As a chess coach to 5,000+ young people the past 3 decades, I have zero tolerance and zero empathy for people like Epstein and those that partied with him, which included abusing under age children for their sex toys.
Donald Trump has lied many thousands of times and done more underhanded things than any American in history that I know of………but the evidence here stronly suggests this is egregious, even for donald Trump.
its no wonder he doesn’t want this information released.
MAGA, that was screaming for this information to be released, if they have any ethical standards should be asking themselves who the real Donald Trump is right now.
there are tons of people including the Clintons that associated with Epstein. I have not found them guilty yet of anything other than hanging with a weirdo. Again the crazy libs will do anything and print anything just to get Trump. Only been a solid decade of this foolishness so far. If the Clintons did bad stuff they most likely not suffer as they have skated as good libs do for their entire adult lives. It does not matter what Trump was years ago the libs want him now and will not stop. If Maxwell has the goods on anyone please let her provide it....now. In fact if you have the goods please provide it now. otherwise everyone is just guessing in the dark.
Thanks, mcfarm!
"In fact if you have the goods please provide it now. otherwise everyone is just guessing in the dark"
Great point and exactly, mcfarm!
This is exactly what President Trump is using his power TO PREVENT US FROM GETTING THE GOODS by blocking the complete information.
Not only that, he tried to abuse his power to stop the Wall Street Journals story by contacting the owner.
If he's innocent, it's no big deal, he has nothing to hide. If he has something to hide...........this is exactly how the guilty party acts.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/18/wall-street-journal-trump-epstein
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5408376-trump-epstein-grand-jury-testimony/
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1. What a smoke screen joke, intentionally intended to mislead Americans that Trump is trying to get to the bottom of it. Almost NOTHING worth knowing will be in the grand jury testimony and it may takes months for a ruling to get the near nothing.
2. Isn't it odd that Epstein and Maxwell had this sex trafficking ring that violated minors for 2+ decades with numerous victims and others that were the perpetrators but nobody else was charged? The very credible reporter from the Miami Herald that broke the story in 2018 told us why just now on CNN. The perpetrators were all super rich people that settled out of court for many millions of dollars and the key part of the settlement in each case was a non-disclosure agreement (NDA), also known as a confidentiality agreement. This was a legally binding contract that protects sensitive information by prohibiting the victims from disclosing the crimes against them. I believe her!
3. Trump could have walked into a trap by suing the Wall Street Journal. The WSJ is owned by the same person that owns Fox News, Rupert Murdock. The WSJ, not only has elite credibility but they lean to the right with their news coverage. They have extremely sharp lawyers that must have advised Murdoch and the WSJ. The editor/reporter breaking the story at the WSJ MUST HAVE have assured them that their information is credible and legally defensible. But here's the thing. If this goes to court, there will be a DISCOVERY PROCESS by both sides. Both sides would be asked to testify under oath. We know that won't make a difference to the worlds biggest liar. However, the WSJ has some of the most talented investigative reporters who would be given an opportunity to discover and report evidence that Donald Trump does NOT want reported.
4. Again. What people want to know is who were all these super rich clients in the Epstein, underage sex trafficking ring? We know they exist and they paid off every victim with millions of dollars to keep them all quiet with NDAs. The terms of the confidentiality would have included much more than just giving the money back if they disclose who sexually violated them. It likely included additional items that are powerful enough to prevent them from revealing the crimes. The terms can only be wildly speculated about.
5. Seeing what happened to Jeffrey Epstein to keep him quiet is likely a great deal of additional incentive to keep them quiet. If you don't believe that then you're just naive.
6. Presently, there is no proof that Donald Trump did anything illegal. Hanging out with the worlds most famous, criminal pedophile(that was likely killed to silence him) for 15 years isn't a crime. Lying about and trying to censor information related to your long lived relationship with the criminal is also not a crime. However, it suggests that you are trying to cover things up for a reason. People that are totally innocent, can usually rely on the truth and transparency to prove their innocence.
7. Anything Donald Trump does is motivated by self serving objectives to make himself look good. This has clearly made him look pretty bad, so we assume that what he's covering up will make him look even worse.a
8. Yes, Trumps adversaries and enemies are pouncing on this with gusto. THEY may be motivated by politics. If you're new here, you may not know that when Trump is innocent or being targeted I will post EVEN MORE to defend him.
1,000+ posts here in the past defending President Trump. See next page!
Accusing me of being TDS is especially absurd, considering I've gone to bat for President Trump with such gusto every time that he was innocent and was victimized by his enemies:
Previous related threads that expose these farce trials:
Get Trump-Hush Money Hullabaloo
26 responses |
Started by metmike - April 17, 2024, 4:57 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/103255/
Trump civil fraud trial-nonsense
Started by metmike - Nov. 12, 2023, 2:43 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100509/
+++++++++++++++++++++
Trump rape case
Started by metmike - May 3, 2023, 9:33 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/94926/
2-11-25: Agreed, mcfarm!!! Comey and his associates are VERY corrupt.
Re: Re: More election fraud nonsense
By metmike - June 3, 2024, 3 p.m.
Make NO mistake. Trump was not the first person and the Rs were not the first party to take this position of a FAKE election steal:
12 Minutes of Democrats Denying Election Results
https://gop.com/video/12-minutes-of-democrats-denying-election-results/
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We know what Trump did after the 2020 election loss but completely lost in the discussion was what the Ds and justice department did after the 2016 election........insisting that Trump's presidency was illegitimate because of "Russian Interference!"
Special Counsel Durham Testifies
Started by metmike - June 21, 2023, 11:24 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/96516/
Durham's final report.........Muellers corrupt investigation
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95210/
Sussman
9 responses |
Started by wglassfo - June 1, 2022, 11:21 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/85147/
would our little Hillary does this?
5 responses |
Started by mcfarm - May 20, 2022, 3:52 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/84655/
More Mueller corruption!
Started by metmike - Sept. 11, 2020, 6:44 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/59031/
FISA report: DOJ watchdog releases findings on Russia probe surveillance Started by metmike - Dec. 9, 2019, 1:12 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/44076/
IG testimony today
Started by wglassfo - Dec. 11, 2019, 5:09 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/44129/
Alan Dershowitz: Stone indictment follows concerning Mueller pattern
Re: Re: Pardon for Michael Flynn
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/61735/#61805
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/60589/#60599
Reviewing Muellers corruption with facts:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/55925/#55961
Just to add this about Horowitz's covering up for the FBI with his interpretation of their unethical behavior(calling it just a bunch of double digit, unintentional errors):
March 31, 2020
new stone video
36 responses |
Started by mcfarm - Feb. 9, 2019, 11:20 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/23544/
++++++++++++++
2-11-25: And they covered for the Biden crime family for many years! Including 50+ of them making up a fairy tale about Hunter's laptop story coming from Russia, just before the 2020 election.
The smartest man that Joe Biden knows
18 responses |
Started by metmike - March 15, 2023, 6:37 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/93831/
+++++++++++++++
2-11-25: Many of us remember when Comey suddenly took over the corrupt Hillary Clinton investigation, after attorney general Lorreta Lynch got busted meeting with Bill Clinton at the Phoenix airport and resigned her role-then appointed corrupt puppet Comey(they made the arrangement with the justice department to have them drop all the legit charges for Hillary's many violations/crimes) because of a whistle blower.
McCabe Interview on 60 Minutes
Started by pj - Feb. 18, 2019, 2:21 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/24146/
++++++++++++++++
There is no rock solid proof that President Trump did anything wrong here and maybe the proof will never be there, even if he did participate in the Epstein underage sex trafficking ring with the other rich players that have been protected.
But regardless, Donald Trump has only himself to blame for:
1. Either doing it
2. Or behaving like he's guilty as heck
3. Now some very talented investigative reporters, some that are NOT TDS, like at the WSJ will be scrutinizing this situation with an objective of learning about the truths which have been covered up. This will be a top story for some time.
4. Americans REALLY want to know and TV/newspapers can cash in with a ratings bonanza!
This is exactly why we don't know who the rich friends of Epstein are (were) that participated in/were customers in his sex trafficking ring.
Except that, increasingly, these agreements define proprietary information not only as trade secrets but also as all manner of illegal and toxic behavior, from sexual misconduct to discrimination to retaliation.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
https://www.zalkin.com/news/2024/december/the-impact-of-non-disclosure-agreements-ndas-on-/
While NDAs can provide short-term relief, they often come at a significant cost to broader societal interests and even the long-term well-being of survivors themselves. Key concerns include:
This is another way in which nondisclosure agreements protect predators:
https://dlawgroup.com/ndas-sexual-assault-cases-silencing-victims/
The use of NDAs in sexual assault and harassment cases has come under intense scrutiny in recent years. Here’s why:
https://blackprelaw.studentgroups.columbia.edu/news/signed-secret-how-ndas-silence-victims
Abstract:
This article examines the alleged misuse of Non Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) by music mogul Sean “Diddy” Combs to silence survivors of sexual abuse and trafficking. Following allegations by Cassie Ventura in 2023 and subsequent lawsuits by over 30 women, federal investigations revealed a possible pattern of coercion, abuse, and concealment spanning decades. The piece explores how NDAs, originally intended to protect proprietary information, can be weaponized to suppress victim testimony and obstruct justice, echoing similar tactics used in high profile cases like Harvey Weinstein's.
By Candice YanezJuly 16, 2019
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Accusers say billionaire’s private paradise of Little St James in U.S. Virgin Islands was centre of international sex trafficking ring
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/business/jeffrey-epstein-finances.html
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https://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/04/jeffrey-epstein-trump-lawsuit-sex-trafficking-237983
Regardless of what the truth is and how long the pressure stays on Trump, it's likely this will just be like everything else political, as defined at this post earlier this afternoon:
Re: Re: Re: more actual evidence of The Hoax
By metmike - July 19, 2025, 3:42 p.m.
What it demonstrates is what has been happening and what will happen with this and any other NEW evidence about almost everything in politics.
It will only be believed by the people that already believed. The ones that didn't believe before, will just use the information from their sources to justify NOT believing any information that contradicts what they WANT TO believe.
The validity of the evidence doesn't matter for most people. The authentic truth doesn't matter.
Each side has THEIR version of the truth and each side's followers use that version, which frequently contradicts the other sides version of the truth defining the exact same realm.
That's the way its been, is now, and ever shall be..........world without end. Amen!
Just like a Catholic prayer that I've said 10's of thousands of times in my life because politics today is just like a RELIGION, with unwavering faith in things that define the faith/political party.
https://www.marquette.edu/faith/prayers-glory-be.php
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
I'll sum up what I think that I know about this with certainty.
1. Jeffry Epstein had rich, powerful friends, many of which knew that he was using his money to satisfy his deviant, criminal pedophilia.
2. Some of them didn't let that interfere with their friendship.
3. 1 of those was Donald Trump. We know from Trump's public comments(on the record) and birthday card(Wall Street Journal) that Trump actually admired this part of Epstein. This is INDISPUTABLE!
4. Those comments/card by Trump clearly indicate his pathological mindset when it came to using women for his self serving, sexual objectives.
5. There is no provable, legal evidence that Trump was part of the Epstein sex trafficking operation with minors.
6. President Trump's actions/words with regards to the Epstein information are exactly those expected from somebody that's guilty and wants to cover up their crime(s) but that doesn't make Trump guilty.
7. President Trump has a decades long history with thousands of NDA's with employees, nefarious activities and victims, sometimes that involve a great deal of money to keep them quiet. Can you say: Stormy Daniels". In that case, the media referred to it as HUSH MONEY but it was very legal between 2 consenting adults, where 1 of them paid the other one to not tell anybody what happened because it was BAD BEHAVIOR by them.
If Stormy hadn't gotten greedy, after Trump became president and decided she would make even more money by violating the agreement, we would never know about it. In the world of the rich and powerful, there are 10s of thousands or more agreements like this that we never find out about..........because its effective HUSH MONEY to keep us from finding out.
We can only speculate about how many other "Stormy Daniels" are out there in Trumps life, probably numerous and some could be crimes. That doesn't make him guilty but it defines who he is and how he protects himself, like other rich and famous people to keep from facing consequences(being held accountable).
8. The rich that were LIKELY active participants in Epstein's pedophile trafficking ring are not known to us because of the HUSH MONEY being exchanged between them and the victims. Fear is also an extremely powerful motive. They killed Epstein for Pete's sakes.
9. There's a 99% chance that Epstein did NOT commit suicide and instead was killed to silence him, especially since he had EVERY REASON TO REVEAL HIS CLIENTS TO MAKE A DEAL! The damage to his body says he was violently strangulated, failing cameras and lying about it are pretty compelling. He was conveniently and suddenly taken off suicide watch. The 2 guards who were assigned to watch Epstein all night were sleeping. Too many extraordinarily crazy coincidences at the same time. This was the most high profile prisoner in the world at the time. It's impossible to believe ALL these things, involving incompetence doing the job expected for the average prisoner just happened to him at the same time.
The guards had admitted to having “willfully and knowingly” falsified records to make it seem they were monitoring Epstein properly.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/case-dropped-jail-guards-duty-night-epstein-died-rcna10557
Most high profile prisoner in the world, with 2 guards supposed to check on him all night and they suddenly, TAKE HIM OFF of suicide watch and simultaneously both guards still assigned to him sleep at the same time while he kills himself. The prison alters the video's of that night. We are later told the cameras on his floor just happened to fail. I read another story that claimed they were accidentally erased. The last video submitted has 3 minutes missing. The autopsy is MUCH more consistent with a strangulation instead of suicide.
Epstein was in an optimal position to reveal his clients to get a plea bargain deal and less severe penalty.
After more reviewing of the facts, I'll make that 99.9% chance that he was killed.
Even if they revealed everything about the investigation, it's extremely unlikely that we will ever know who killed him.
The investigation, likely used and interpreted the facts with a spin that he killed himself.
The only real way that we have and will ever have of knowing what really happened is by using our brains, along with critical thinking/common sense to come to the only logical conclusion.
Jeffrey Epstein was killed to keep him quiet.
What would have contradicted that to give us evidence that he committed suicide and for me, consider that as a possibility.
1. Legit camera footage-instead, that mysteriously vanished-either by malfunctions in equipment or mistakes or with nefarious edits.
2. Observations from either 1 of the guards-mysteriously, both were sleeping and they found him dead after their long naps.
3. Autopsy that didn't point to a violent strangulation
Conspiracies theories aren't conspiracy theories when almost all the authentic facts support the theory.
There probably isn't a specific client list but there were some names and suspects (that likely paid HUSH MONEY to victims so they would not testify as well as the fear of going the way of Epstein).
The government is unlikely to reveal names of suspects in this case, even if they were investigated unless THEY WERE CHARGED.
Since nobody except Epstein and Maxwell were charged and convicted, the chances of us getting what we want seem pretty slim.
Interestingly, Trump should have known that and been able to release a ton of information that didn't implicate him and to satisfy a lot of people but his reaction, instead was like a knee jerk reaction from somebody that's guilty and wants to cover up everything about their crime.
Knowing Trump and this reaction makes it obvious that he's hiding something for sure.
Maybe just the friendship and admiration that's on the record that he had for years with Epstein, some of it related to Epstein's pathological sexual behavior that Trump was crystal clearly aware of.
If that's all of it, then its not a crime to be a sexist and chauvinist that uses and abuses women for his pathological, personal gratifications, who likes to hang out with other people like him. That had already been well established and this is nothing new!
We know how much he admires people with similar mental illness/personalities.... dictators and psychopaths, like Netanyahu and Putin. The admiration part is not a crime.
It's not a surprise that he befriended and admired a person like Jeffrey Epstein, which also wasn't a crime.
The real crime is that we elected a person like this to be our president and the most powerful man in the world!
New poll asks Americans whether they believe Wall Street Journal report about birthday letter Donald Trump sent to Jeffrey Epstein
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President Trump clearly does not believe in freedom of the press or free speech. Instead he practices authoritarianism that penalizes journalists and organizations that don't fall in line with his agenda or narratives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press
Freedom of the press or freedom of the media is the fundamental principle that communication and expression through various media, including printed and electronic media, especially published materials, should be considered a right to be exercised freely. Such freedom implies no or minimal censorship or prior restraint from government, and is often protected by laws or a provision in a constitution. The concept of freedom of speech is often covered by the same laws as freedom of the press, thereby giving equal treatment to spoken and published expression; many countries also protect scientific freedom.
In letters sent to Bondi, FBI Director Kash Patel and FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino on Friday, Durbin said that his office had received information that the attorney general “pressured” the agents to conduct a review of about 100,000 Epstein-related records on 24-hour shifts.
“These personnel were instructed to ‘flag’ any records in which President Trump was mentioned,” Durbin said. The effort, he added, was “haphazardly supplemented by hundreds of FBI New York Field Office personnel, many of whom lacked the expertise to identify statutorily protected information regarding child victims and child witnesses.”
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This is the action of a powerful person that's guilty and intends to cover it up. I hope we get a whistle blower(s) to come forward. Knowing Trump, these FBI New York Field agents were required to sign Nondisclosure agreements with stiff penalties for revealing anything they found or actions that they are/were required to do.
There is no other way to interpret this directive as coming from Trump and intended to identify any places in the files that mention him in order to either censor them or permanently remove them from the records.
Sounds about right for President Trump.
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“The president is trying to present himself as if he’s doing something here and it really is nothing,” Krissoff told The Associated Press in a weekend interview.
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EXACTLY!!!
Good chance that Trump deletes documents related to him in the Epstein files. Not that he cares but this is a crime.
https://www.ctas.tennessee.edu/eli/destruction-and-tampering-governmental-records
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Knowing President Trump and in this case his relationship with Epstein and extremely suspicious behavior, there's a good chance that he will tamper with the records that mention him. Actually, I would be MUCH more surprised if he released ALL the records that he paid hundreds of agents to scrutinize to identify mention of him.
Mike said,
“Knowing President Trump and in this case his relationship with Epstein and extremely suspicious behavior, there's a good chance that he will tamper with the records that mention him.”
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Hey Mike,
Certainly Trump’s behavior is suggestive of someone trying to hide something. Regardless, do you agree that there’s still no clearcut evidence that he raped any minor girls like Epstein did? There seems to be strong hints that he’s attended parties with both Epstein and female minors. And he’s admitted that he’s walked through dressing rooms with naked teens at his Miss Teen USA pageants. He’s clearly turned on bigtime by them. But neither of those is rape.
Now that’s not at all to say that he definitely didn’t rape any minor girls. It actually wouldn’t be shocking to me if he did. But I’m saying for now innocent until proven guilty.
Do you agree? What about the possibility that he really is hiding something but it isn’t rape?
https://www.livenowfox.com/news/trump-releases-mlk-fbi-surveillance-files
https://time.com/7304293/mlk-files-released-fbi-trump/
The timing of the MLK files’ release has raised questions, as the Trump Administration is currently facing pressure over its refusal to release additional files related to the federal investigation into Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and convicted sex offender who died in custody in 2019. Trump last week ordered the release of limited grand jury testimony but declined to unseal the full case file, prompting frustration among his supporters.
If he lies like a Guilty Donald
If he covers up evidence like a guilty Donald
If he tries to control/censor the media and punishes a right leaning well respected media source(WSJ) and sues them
for an absurd $10,000,000,000 like a Guilty Donald
If he refuses to release information that MAGA expected him to release like a guilty Donald
If he tries to do everything in his power to distract us like a Guilty Donald..............
It's a GUILTY DONALD!
So we're left to figure out the degree of his guilt, which ranges, AT THE LEAST from just being a pal of Epstein's for 15 years that included on the record admiration for Epstein's enjoyment of girls, and a dozen rides on Epstein's private jet.
Or did Trump ALSO participate with Epstein in having sex with these girls.
Trump's behavior here sure suggests the later but Donald Trump knows that he's guilty of something. Innocent people WANT total transparency because the truth sets them free/vindicates them.
But this Donald is behaving just like a Guilty Donald so its his own fault that objective, critically thinking people would be connecting his behavior with his guilt.
And he's his own worst enemy!
His behavior/actions and words, instead of making this go away, by imposing his authoritative omnipotence on the world is doing the complete opposite.
His delusional mind thinks that people will equate his nutso, $10 billion lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal as meaning he must be innocent.
And that they won't think there was nothing wrong with him contacting the owner of the paper and ordering them to stop the story. Or that this isn't a blatant violation of Freedom of the Press. Or that all of his actions, actually are making him more and more guilty.
And if this goes to court, the WSJ will be allowed to access information in the name of discovery. Trump will try to control who the judge(s) is/are that make rulings but the WSJ can't be pushed around like he wants. This will likely drag out for many months, possibly years. Exactly what Trump DOES NOT WANT.
I really doubt that the WSJ settles out of court. They must have had their high paid attorney's give advise after Trump threatened them BEFORE the article was published. This actually could turn into a newspaper selling bonanza for the WSJ!
He's dug a deep hole for himself and the media he wants to shut down, has been actually been fed massive ammo and given massive reinforcement to cover every aspect of this story FOR A LONG TIME.
NOW, there will countless reporters doing investigations to uncover facts related to this which relate to Trump's relationship with Epstein.
The first 3 minutes explains Donalds GOP approval rating
Thanks, cutworm!
Actually, the reason Trump is so popular is that MAGA is a cult and they all have TAS. Trump Adoration Syndrome.
When Trump misbehaves, lies or passes horrible agenda and he gets justifiably criticized by his adversaries as well as by clear thinking, objective people, MAGA circles the Trump wagon and defends him. No matter what he did, how bad it was or how guilty he is when Trump does something that deserves criticism, MAGA instead of seeing the blatant facts/evidence will completely ignore all that. Instead rallying behind their cult leader like a good cult does.
Calling Trump out for bad behavior or criticizing him causes his ratings with MAGA and Rs to go up.
Even when Trump calls his base/MAGA names
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The Cult
6 responses |
Started by joj - July 19, 2024, 8:43 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/106042/
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The 'phase one' Epstein files were released in February.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/times-trumps-appeared-epstein-files-doj-released/story?id=123848078
In total, Trump was mentioned in the flight logs at least eight times, including:
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Since Trump is NEVER going to release the complete files, there must be something much worse than this above.
What Trump will release are things that don't tell us squat about the victims or the rich "Johns" that paid Epstein to hook them up with underage girls from his sex trafficking with minors business.
Hopefully, the investigative journalists on this, which is going to be very numerous in the weeks ahead, will uncover solid information.
However, even if they DID reveal Donald Trump committed a crime, MAGA WILL NEVER ABANDON HIM.
Trump can NEVER do something so egregious that MAGA would abandon him. Almost by definition of the cult, whatever Trump does is like 1 of the commandments/tenets of the cult.
Almost all Trump realities are twisted like a pretzel to line up positively with their ideology.
Almost all information is spun so that it supports Trump.
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Whatever is released will NEVER show the truth about Jeffrey Epstein being murdered to protect those with secrets to hide,. People who KNOW the facts that are out there and can do critical thinking can have extremely high confidence that Epstein did not commit suicide. When so many facts all simultaneously point strongly to foul play(the vast majority) its NOT a conspiracy theory. It's the suicide explanation, actually that makes much less sense, if we knew NOTHING and were given just the facts and asked to pick suicide or murder based on that. 99% of people with logical minds would likely pick murder.
Trump Epstein Case | Mark Epstein Talks About His Brother's Very Close Friendship With Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPn67ZDfd_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLBmir7g7xw
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https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-wsj-lawsuit-murdoch-court-obama-judge-2101712
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The omnipotent one continues to use really bad judgment to make bad decisions and make unforced errors because his omnipotence only exists in his and MAGA's minds.
In the REAL world, although he has been able to practice authoritarian leadership much of the time as president, there are some realms where he will pay a hefty price.
This didn't have to go the way it is right now but he has only himself to blame.
Go to the 4 minute mark for the story on Epstein/Trump.
Around the 4:40 mark, Epstein is questioned under oath in March 2010.
He's asked if he had a personal relationship with Donald Trump.
Epstein asked what is meant by a personal relationship. They interviewer say's "did you socialize with him?"
Epstein responds "yes, sir" 2 times.
Then he's asked if he ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18 year.
Epstein refuses to answer that question and instead responds that "although I would like to answer that question,, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my 5th, 6th and 14th amendment right, sir."
https://abc.com/episode/41213da6-e986-4d34-882b-a71200ae195f/playlist/PL557226598?view=full
Just to review what we know and why this case matters.
1. Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile that had sex with underage girls.
2. Epstein ran a decades long child trafficking business that had clients. He only hung out with rich powerful people so we have to assume with extremely high confidence that those were also the clients(Johns) for his child trafficking business.
3. We also have to assume that his long lived friends, even if they were not his clients, must have known about his obsession with underage women. Donald Trump was one of those friends.
4. Some of those friends WERE his clients and DID violate underage girls. To assume otherwise defies what logically makes sense.
5. The names of those clients and the names of the victims have not been released to the public. 1 reason is to protect the victims. Another, even bigger reason is that the clients are using their money/power to protect themselves.
6. There is a near 100% chance that the victims have been paid by the rich clients with millions of dollars in "hush money" or "compensation" or "confidentiality agreements" As it turns out, legally these are not enforceable when they involve payments to somebody to keep quiet about a crime committed. However, legal, shmeegal! This doesn't matter to victims who are extremely unlikely to come forward when they are receiving millions of dollars to be quiet and could be killed for doing so as well as making their lives a nightmare. Best to just enjoy the wealth from money gushing in that will take care of them for the rest of their lives. These would NOT have been 1 time settlements. The agreements would likely be X million/year for XX years. That way, they know the money only comes with them continuing to be quiet.
7. Jeffrey Epstein was killed by these same people(person). The vast majority (already presented) of evidence, that includes all sorts of lies and attempts to cover it up by the prison, shows this. When people lie repeatedly about the circumstances of events(crimes) we can be sure that the truth would be incriminating OR THEY WOULD USE THE TRUTH!
8. President Trump knows the truth about his involvement and has already lied numerous times about the friendship, the knowledge of what's in the files and the release of the files. We are left to guess on why he is choosing lies over the truth. Very strong circumstantial evidence suggests that he participated in the actual crimes but we don't have proof and will likely never have the proof about him or for the clients that violated these underage girls.
9. Trump is suing the Wall Street Journal for $10,000,000,000 for publishing, what is extremely likely the truth. He is already paying a price for it and that will only get worse.
10. The media will cover stories for many reasons. 2 of them in this case are: 1. For ratings/sales and 2. For things they believe in/their agenda. Those 2 reasons will be dominating for many weeks to come. Hundreds of media reporters, some skilled investigative reporters with connections will be busting their butts to uncover new information for weeks and weeks. This will be a big black cloud hanging over Trump's head for quite awhile that generates periodic lightning bolts that hit him on the head.
11. President Trump has only himself to blame for this. Whether it started with his Epstein relationship, his participating or his lies about the relationship and attempts to cover it up.......it all goes back to 1 person. Donald Trump.
12. This will not impact those with TAS(Trump adoration syndrome) that much. In fact, history has shown that when Trump is faced with attacks, even legit ones his base's knee jerk reaction is to defend Trump NO MATTER what the facts are.
In some cases, like the Mueller Witch Hunt for 2.5 years, the authentic facts completely vindicate Trump and prove the other side committed 100% of the fraud/crimes and lies. MAGA is convinced that this defines EVERY situation with Trump. I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is NOT one of those times.
This is NOT the Mueller investigation.
This is NOT the absurd 2018 impeachment over a phone call.
This is not the fake rape trial in NY or the other 2 fake cases he was convicted of in NY.
I vigorously defended Donald Trump in all 5 of those ludicrous uses of weaponizing the justice system to unfairly try to destroy him.
I am NOT defending Donald Trump here...........unless some surprise evidence (unlikely) gives a legit reason to do that.
13. Added: Trump's lawyer(and deputy attorney general) made a surprise announcement of a trip last week to visit Maxwell who got 20 years in prison for her part in the trafficking of underage girls business of Epstein's. I can only guess that this was to cut some sort of deal with her to keep her mouth shut when she testifies. Trump must know already what she knows about him but he doesn't know what she will say if she testifies and must be fearful of that.........or why send his lawyer to meet with her??? If Trump didn't do anything wrong, then he wouldn't have to worry because she wouldn't just make up that he was a client. Personally, I think this points strongly to the fact that Trump was a client.
Regardless, Trump is getting ahead of it and likely offering her incentive to keep quiet. A shorter sentence? More money?? A pardon at the end of his term??? Those are wild guesses.
Maxwell could have some bargaining chips here to lighten her sentence? But why not use them previously? Ask Jeffrey Epstein if you want to know
She is the only other living human that knows most of the truth. Maybe Epstein was going to reveal the clients to make a plea bargain deal and she didn't do it to stay alive?
Regardless, this is going to be a headline story for a very long time.
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By
Published July 24, 2025
Former prosecutors described Thursday’s meeting as highly unusual.
“If Todd Blanche, now running the DOJ and formerly Trump’s personal lawyer, is personally meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, it suggests something far outside the norm,” said Duncan Levin, a former Brooklyn federal prosecutor turned defense lawyer.
“This isn’t some career prosecutor following protocol,” Levin added. “It’s a direct line from Trump’s inner circle to one of the most infamous inmates in the country.”
It raises real questions about whether this is about national interest or political interest. A sentence commutation can only come from the President, and if Blanche is getting involved at this level, you have to ask: what does Trump think Maxwell has that’s worth cutting a deal over?”
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It's almost impossible to interpret this as anything other than President Trump wanting to cut a deal to keep her quiet. Then, have the Rs call her up to give testimony under oath, lie about Trump's involvement and he rewards her with a shortened sentence or pardon at the end of his term.
The Times also reviewed other records of the president’s friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, including an inscription in which the future president called him “the greatest.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/24/us/politics/trump-epstein-birthday-book.html
The president sued The Wall Street Journal for defamation after it reported on July 17 that he had signed the note and drawing in the book, a leather-bound album compiled by Ms. Maxwell to mark Mr. Epstein’s milestone birthday. The Journal described the drawing as the outline of a naked woman with Mr. Trump’s signature below her waist, suggesting pubic hair. It quoted an imagined conversation between Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein that concluded with Mr. Trump saying: “May every day be another wonderful secret.”
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Logical brains can reasonably conclude what Trump was referring to when he used the verbiage "another wonderful secret"
It's becoming increasingly obvious that Trump was not just close to Epstein for over a decade and knew about his pedophilia "secret" but clearly admired him for it(drawing a picture of a naked woman/girl on his birthday greeting is about as obvious as it gets).
It's becoming almost impossible to believe that Trump was not an active participant. He was a guest on Epstein's private plane a dozen times.
He's certainly not the only rich and powerful person that used their influence to cover this up(censor it) and pay off the victims with hush money. However, it still seems unlikely that we will ever know who most of them are and what role they played in the murder of Epstein.
Maybe just one of them acted independently to have Epstein murdered to protect himself?
Or did they collude? Certainty, many of them would likely have known who the other ones were and they could have pooled their resources to protect ALL of them.
This really happened and Trump made another catastrophic blunder by suing the Wall Street Journal for $10,000,000,000. They will NOT settle. He will lose and between now and when he makes up a reason for why he's withdrawing the lawsuit he is taking hit after hit after hit...........and it keeps going in 1 direction........against him.
Too late now for him to do anything that saves him from the consequences of his actions.
Actions involved with Epstein over 2 decades ago, that for all practical purposes were buried forever but now, suddenly we are finding out much more than we knew before, thanks to Trump's mishandling of this.
It's only going to get worse for him.
MAGA will never leave his side but the Rs in Congress, have a wonderful opportunity to take control back from this authoritarian president so our country can go back to practicing the Constitution and the balance of power.
Would this be worth impeachment?
Maybe not to the level of his Constitution violating, criminal attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election and his Insurrection (and he weathered that storm) but much more than the absurd phone call to Ukraine in 2018.
With Rs controlling Congress that can never happen.
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We can speculate what's going on based on Trumps attorney, Todd Blanche (and Deputy Attorney General) suddenly deciding to meet with Maxwell and her attorney for 2 days.
Mr. Hush Money, that has decades of confidential disclosure agreements to keep people quiet as most rich and powerful people do to avoid challenges or unfavorable information from being released by victims, whistle blowers, competitors, ex employees and others is going to give Maxwell early freedom at some point if she lies about anything that implicates him regarding Trump in her testimony.
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The bottom line is that everything that Maxwell states about Donald Trump (or doesn't say) if/when she gets the opportunity, will be influenced by the agreement that his attorney and Maxwell/ Maxwell's attorney agree on.
That won't stop the media from uncovering additional information and they are extremely motivated right now.
It's not impossible that a victim or whistle blower could feel compelled to come forward, despite the risks and breaking a previous confidential agreement/hush money from a rich and powerful pedophile.
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/ghislaine-handed-doj-100-names-in-brazen-pardon-quid-pro-quo/
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As the uproar over the Epstein files continues, prosecutors say the late sex offender's longtime accomplice has a history of lying. Her defense lawyer says she will speak truthfully.
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Trump said earlier this month that there's nothing here> Its just a D party and media conspiracy theory. Now, all of a sudden we possibly have 100 names????
Sounds like nothing +100 to me!
Betcha 10 billion dollars that Trumps name will be on the list of people that she completely exonerates with her testimony. She will also lie about the birthday card that the WSJ published a story about and say it's not true and Trump is suing them for 10 billion over.
After she does this, a magical mystery pardon will come to pay her off for lying about Trump.
President Trump is acting like a man that is guilty. Innocent people use the entire truth to prove their innocence. Trump has already been caught in several lies, so we have to assume that there must be information even worse that he doesn't want to get out.
Now, we get to continue to witness him blatantly abusing the justice system for his personal agenda.
It would be nice if some on this list of rich/powerful people were actually brought to justice.
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3 of the victims in the Epstein case have already died. This was the latest one:
The 41-year-old’s family issued a statement, confirming she took her own life at her farm in Western Australia.
We have to remember that all these families(dead victims too) are being paid multi million dollars to KEEP QUIET by the rich and powerful pedophiles that victimized their lost loved one. If they speak out, they also risk their lives. They have witnessed what these people WILL do. There is no way that the victims didn't tell anybody in their family who the perpetrators were.
It's clearly obvious from the fact that:
1. Trump, supposedly has a list of 100 names after telling us earlier in the month there's nothing there. Either he's completely making that up in a scheme with Maxwell to target other people and vindicate himself or, he actually does know who they are.
2. Those "names" are exactly what MAGA and others have been insisting they want released. Trump pretending earlier in the month that he didn't know the names and lying about what he knows is a clear indication of somebody that can't rely on the truth to vindicate themselves.
3. The names on the list, that were part of the sex trafficking ring of minors, likely know many of the other ones. Trump's comments in public over 2 decades ago, calling Jeffrey Epstein a “terrific guy” someone who, in his own words, “likes beautiful women as he does… many of them on the younger side.” is a take it to the bank acknowledgement that DONALD TRUMP KNEW FOR YEARS, WHILE HE WAS EPSTEINS BEST FRIEND. Flying on Epstein's private plane a dozen times during those years is further evidence. The birthday card/letter in 2003 with a picture of a naked women is further, extremely powerful evidence that Trump clearly shared a mutual appreciation of women/girls with Epstein.
Ask yourself: How many grown men would send a card like that to their best friend? The number doesn't matter but what does is this: Of those, how many would do that if they didn't mutually appreciate and share the SAME THING on that card. That actually would be THE reason to make a letter like that.
If Epstein is a pedophile and Trump isn't but Trump sends a card like that, it's because Trump explicitly approves of Epstein's sex life, enough to make his birthday letter about it in 2003 by drawing a naked woman with his name over her private area. The WSJ has the letter/card and checked sources. Trump is legal dead meat over his lawsuit, no matter that Maxwell is going to lie about it and other things for him so that she can get out of prison early.
We will have to wait to watch this play out but the known facts so far and the behavior of President Trump, make this the most likely outcome.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/25/politics/trump-epstein-claims-analysis
The letter included an outline of a naked woman and a strange, imagined conversation between Trump and Epstein in which Trump concludes by saying, “May every day be another wonderful secret,” according to the Journal. The president is suing the newspaper and its owner, his oft-ally Rupert Murdoch, saying the letter is a “fake.”
Part of Trump’s public denials have rested on the idea that it simply wasn’t in his character to draw things. “I never wrote a picture in my life,” Trump said at one point. “I don’t draw pictures,” he added at another.
It didn’t take long to find plenty of evidence that contradicted that. Trump drawings have been auctioned off. He wrote in a 2008 letter that he donated an autographed doodle every year to a charity. A charity director told CNN that Trump sent her two signed drawings in 2004, the year after the Epstein birthday letter.
++++++++++++
https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/25/politics/ghislaine-maxwell-trump-epstein-doj
Critics have cried foul that the DOJ official interviewing Maxwell was Blanche, rather than a non-political prosecutor who has been involved in the case who would have much more expertise. Not only is Blanche a top political appointee of Trump’s; he’s also his formal personal lawyer.
++++++++++
I've been wondering when this would break into the MSM. CNN interviewed this guy: He's EXTREMELY CREDIBLE! These tapes are going to be Trump's latest worst nightmare. This just keeps getting worse and worse for him.
Trump and Epstein were CLOSE friends from the late 80's to 2004. Interesting, they had a falling out because Epstein told Trump about a property he was purchasing and Trump back stabbed him and out bid him to get the property.
Imagine that. Trump was more devious in that transaction than the worlds most famous pedophile
Then, Epstein CUT OFF TIES WITH TRUMP, NOT the other way around. The complete opposite story that Trump tells.
Listen To The Jeffrey Epstein Tapes: ‘I Was Donald
Trump’s Closest Friend
https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU08/20250227/117951/HHRG-119-JU08-20250227-SD006-U6.pdf
The former president and Trump were both included in a section of Eptein’s “friends,” according to the paper.
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/07/24/epstein-birthday-book-bill-clinton-entry-00476639
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https://nypost.com/2021/12/02/jeffrey-epstein-visited-clinton-white-house-at-least-17-times-report/
Published Dec. 2, 2021
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Favour Adegoke
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And this knowledge of criminal secrets about the rich and powerful is exactly what got Epstein killed!!
This statement by Epstein, strongly suggests that Trump was doing illegal things. Not sure what he had on Hillary, maybe just her husband who also has a history of abusing woman like Trump.
The Epstein tapes are going to take this to another level against Trump. THIS IS EPSTEINS VOICE!
The interviewer is authentic. There are dozens of hours. The interviewer, on CNN, talked about seeing numerous pictures of Epstein and Trump together with topless young women that looked like young models, he couldn’t say for sure the age, just bodies that looked like young models and being topless with Epstein and Trump.
Im nearly certain that Trump has promised Maxwell her freedom if she lies to save his arse about his crimes.
Anybody that doesn’t believe he would do that is living in denial of who Trump has been his entire life.
He tried to overturn the results,of the 2020 election and caused/inspired an Insurrection trying to do it and is still trying to convince the world that he won…..by a lot but the Ds cheated.
Getting 1 woman, desperate to get out of prison to lie for him, {because he knows exactly what crimes he committed with Epstein) is what he is going to do with very high confidence.
All the evidence coming out now, with Trump being Epsteins best friend from the late 1980s to 2004 makes it impossible for me to believe that he wasn’t having sex with minors, along with his best friend.
Are we supposed to believe that Trump was hanging out with Epstein and topless young woman frequently but Epstein was having sex with them and Trump,wasn’t???
Are we to believe that Trump is going to have Maxwell testify because she is going to tell us about that?
What would she say? Epstein would have sex with all of them but Trump just wanted to hang out with them all day without having sex???
What she will do is make up stories to vindicate Trump so she can get out of prison. That will have interesting implications and some will,want additional charges against her for lying. Will she reveal,other names to try to focus the attention away from Trump?
This is only going to get worse for Trump. I’m now thinking there’s a good chance that he played a role in having Epstein killed……..based on his long history of behavior and now, knowing with higher confidence that he was one of Epstein partners in crime.
It defies logic for him to be Epstein best friend for 15 years and portray himself as not knowing what was going on.
THIS WAS EXACTLY WHY HE WAS EPSTEIN’S BEST FRIEND!!
Everything points to that. Remember, Epstein was getting away with it all,those years and all the rich and powerful “John’s” , including Trump paid off people or used threats to also get away with it.
Paying off Maxwell,with her freedom will be just the latest action to cover up his personal involvement.
There is now the chance that a victim or victims of Trumps could feel safe to speak out because it’s no longer being covered up. At least a 50% chance that this happens.
circumstances like these are often what motivates victims, especially fearful victims To come forward.
If that happens, we could be looking at the demise,of Donald Trump.!!
How ironic would that be.
MAGA has insisted on having the names of the rich and powerful Epstein pedophiles and right there near the top is their omnipotent leader!
Be careful for what you wish for……..because you might just get it!
WOW!
They tried every way possible to take Trump down and failed and now, to have it end this way. WOW!
Bill Clinton is going down with him too. Hopefully, several others.
This is still rapidly evolving. One thing for certain, it will NOT be going away and will still be getting worse.
What we need now to really break this wide open are a couple of victims to feel safe enough to come forward.
A reminder, 3 of them have died suddenly in recent years, so the rest of them must be terrified.
Exposing this could make them feel safer to blow the whistle…..or they might be getting reminders from the perps for why they should stay quiet.
I feel that Trumps many enemies will try to reach out to them in order to get a couple of the victims to break their silence and theres a decent chance that might be successful.
There’s obviously still no proof that’s been made public. So, innocent til proven guilty of course. Perhaps he was disciplined just enough to realize how much trouble he could get into.
Be that as it may, it’s rather difficult to believe that with it being Trump and with him apparently hanging around with Epstein when there were at least some minor girls around (some possibly topless) that he wouldn’t have fallen for the temptation and joined Epstein in actually having sex with at least one of them once. This would be made even more likely if he actually does pardon Maxwell. Why else would he even want to pardon Maxwell, which would be politically a bad move?
Can anyone think of any other reason for Trump to pardon Maxwell? I’m assuming he and his team are going to think this through very carefully from a political standpoint. Perhaps they’re thinking of something we’re not. They’re not stupid. They may very well have still another political trick up their sleeve.
Another reason? Yes the obvious. It could be that the DOJ is the one offering. And the reason is to get the info on exactly who was involved and if and when they might of committed crimes. And without some concrete evidence this a ghost chase.
And all of that is a shame for the victims. They should have some justice.
Michael Wolff is sitting on a trove of 100 hours of interviews with Jeffrey Epstein and says he sent the disgraced financier a message only hours before his death.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2025/07/20/the-wolff-epstein-tapes/
What else did you learn specifically about Trump and Epstein?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
Epstein talked about how Trump liked to pick up girls, sleep with other men’s wives, liked black women, and at one point, they shared a girlfriend for almost a year.
JONATHAN ALTER:
Did you find out who that was?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
No, but I have a fairly good idea.
JONATHAN ALTER:
Did Epstein ever lie about Trump?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
I had no reason to think so. The details and involvement of other people lead me to believe it was mostly true. I just received an email from someone who said that in the early ’90s, Charles Allen [co-founder of Allen and Co.] introduced this person to Donald Trump, who was with Epstein and called him “Jeffy.”
JONATHAN ALTER:
Is it your audio online where Epstein says Trump was his best friend?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
Yes, it is. I’ve released it a couple of times, most recently before the 2024 election, after a former Epstein girlfriend came forward with allegations against Trump.
JONATHAN ALTER:
Did you ever believe Trump was seeing underage girls?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
I don’t know. All I know is he spent enormous time with Epstein, obviously knew what was going on there, and they hunted girls together, including when they were in business with modeling agencies. There’s the “calendar” story—Miss Whoever, beauty pageants at Mar-a-Lago, with an audience of two: Epstein and Trump. I saw pictures of girls around Epstein’s pool in Palm Beach. Their age and what Trump was doing with them, other than the fact that they were topless, I don’t know.
JONATHAN ALTER:
You’ve described a couple of photos he took from his safe and showed you: one showed topless women sitting with Trump, and one showed women pointing at a stain on his pants and laughing. Is that right?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
Yes, that’s right.
JONATHAN ALTER:
Were they of indeterminate age or in their 20s?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
They were of indeterminate age.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
What we need now are some victims to feel safe enough to come forward...............even though the rich and powerful pedophiles could be sending them messaging advising them against it. It's possible if we can get 1 or even 2 to do that, numerous others will feel its safe to come forward.
We should keep in mind that in these interviews, Epstein gave the "watered down" version that avoided incriminating himself with the sorted details of his underage girls, sex trafficking business that could be used against him.
This would have also avoided the details of Trump participating in that part of it.
Trump, as Epstein's best friend was participating with Epstein in the rest of it that Epstein set up for them. It's illogical to think that Trump, somehow had a moral conscious that prevented him from doing the rest.........having sex with them, especially since that was such a key, well defined and proven part of Trump's life.
Even hardened criminals have zero tolerance for pedophiles. Predators of the worst kind, stealing the innocence away from young people and sentencing them to a life time of horrific memories that can haunt them forever.
MAGA has always defended Trump, no matter what the situation. They may now have to make the toughest choice yet, defending a pedophile and predator.
We've always known that Trump was a predator of many, many ADULT women and he's been getting a free pass by MAGA for that.
It will be interesting to see how they respond to the increasingly strong evidence of their leader being a despicable child molesting predator.
We can say that we still don't have proof but, actually we do now. The only thing missing is victims coming forward.
It's crystal clear that Epstein's best friend for over a decade was Donald Trump and the reason that they were such good friends was their mutually sharing of what Epstein was convinced of. Horrible crimes using his human trafficking ring of underage women for sex.
There is no other way to logically see it.
The Epstein tapes would NEVER tell us that part. They were not a confession. Epstein wanted them to be part of his life story shared, without the part about his crimes.
We know with 100% certainty that Epstein did these horrible crimes for decades, almost with impunity until the end. Donald Trump was right there, as his best friend for 15 of those years BECAUSE of their shared passion as predators.
so this earth shaking interview with Wolff......states Trump is a cad....boy we never knew that...it is truly earth shaking development. He likes women, models no less, some were black but not one iota of evidence....especially under age evidence. This is more embarrassing for the attorney than it is for Trump. Trump knows what he is and what he likes. And seems one thing for sure so far. He had no interest in young girls. It is simply and so far thank goodness not his thing and never was.
Thanks very much, mcfarm!
That's gives us a sample of how MAGA will interpret this.
Using this interpretation it means that Jeffrey Epstein never really committed any crimes because these WERE THE SAME GIRLS.
Epstein's underage girls sex trafficking ring didn't have LEGAL women just for Donald Trump because Donald Trump wanted to follow the law. These were the same girls that these predators used their money and power to victimize.
I'm not saying they were ALL underage but Donald Trump wasn't checking IDs or even cared because he was there to satisfy his carnal desires that he shared with his sick pedophile best friend. And they did it together by doing what Epstein was in prison for.
And they did it for many, many years together with Epstein being Donald Trump's best friend FOR THIS EXACT REASON.
+++++++
I'm well past the stage of stating "we don't have any proof that Donald Trump did anything wrong".
There's also ZERO proof of anybody doing anything wrong, except Epstein and Maxwell. We are supposed to believe that this big underage girls sex trafficking ring with numerous victims ........didn't have anybody else involved??
Trump's lawyer stated that they have 100 names. Probably many of them were innocent but the guilty ones have gone unprosecuted with ZERO evidence because they used their power and money to make sure there was no proof.
We now have almost 10 times more on Donald Trump related to this, during his 15 years of being Epstein's best friend than anybody else.
What does it take? Actually pictures of Trump having sex with the victims?
What we still need ARE THE VICTIMS to come forward to completely seal the case.
They were ALL PAID OFF and are scared. Epstein was killed. 3 of the victims died suddenly in recent years. This includes Trump's victims that he has kept quiet.
Here's a perfect example:
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770
By Josh Gerstein11/04/2016 07:03 PM EDT
Updated:
A woman who accused Donald Trump of raping her two decades ago when she was a 13-year-old aspiring teen model has again dropped a federal lawsuit over the alleged assaults.
The accuser, identified in the lawsuit by the pseudonym “Jane Doe,” was expected to appear at a news conference in Los Angeles Wednesday, but that appearance was abruptly canceled.
The lawyer who organized the event, Lisa Bloom, said Trump’s accuser had received threats and was too frightened to show up.
In the most recent suit, Trump’s accuser asserted that while she was exploring a modeling career in 1994, she attended a series of parties at the Manhattan home of prominent investor Jeffrey Epstein. She alleges that during those parties the real estate mogul tied her to a bed and raped her. She also claimed Epstein raped her during that series of gatherings.
+++++++++++++++++
Like the rest of his victims, Donald Trump uses the same strategy to silence them. He pays them off and threatens them to keep them quiet.
This effective silencing strategy was also used by Bill Clinton and the other rich and powerful men that committed crimes with Epstein.
I think there's at least a 50% chance that some victims will come forward because the spotlight on this FINALLY might make them feel more protected than before. A victim that comes forward that suddenly dies now can still happen but will get much more scrutiny than the previous sudden deaths of victims the past several years.
just a reminder. These Epstein tapes were not confessions. They were, apparently 100 hours of Epstein telling the interviewer things that he wanted people to know about him, leaving out all the crimes that we know with certainty he committed.
He places Donald Trump AT THE SCENE of many of the crimes that we know he committed with others as accomplices.
He confirms a 15 year old relationship as Donald Trump's best friend .Trump's comments and pictures tell us the same thing.
We haven't heard about their friendship being about playing golf together(which Trump loves to do or doing other things that best male friends do together.
Most of what we know about in the friendship appears to be about them picking up women at parties and arranging for their own personal parties with Epstein's women at Epstein's place.
Epstein had numerous other stories about Trump and how he got women and how Trump bragged about doing it. Not necessarily illegal but very ruthless, backstabbing friends and definitely predatory but with Epstein telling it with an almost admiration type mentality to it.
That's why these guys made such great best friends.
Did you ever believe Trump was seeing underage girls?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
I don’t know. All I know is he spent enormous time with Epstein, obviously knew what was going on there, and they hunted girls together, including when they were in business with modeling agencies. There’s the “calendar” story—Miss Whoever, beauty pageants at Mar-a-Lago, with an audience of two: Epstein and Trump. I saw pictures of girls around Epstein’s pool in Palm Beach. Their age and what Trump
If you really think this is evidence to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt you do not understand jurist prudence in a constitutional republic. This more than anything is slander
Thanks, mcfarm!
I'm 100% convinced as in without a question that Trump is guilty based on massive amounts of circumstantial, LEGALLY ADMISSIBLE evidence, from several different lines that all point to the same thing with 0, ZERO evidence that suggests that he's innocent.
You plucked out a paragraph and claiming that's proof that he's not guilty or it isn't provable in court doesn't exonerate him at all. It ignores the massive/overwhelming circumstantial evidence that ALL points to his guilt, well beyond a reasonable doubt.
The only thing missing are the victims to testify and we all know why they did a disappearing act, don't we? This is why MAGA has been insisting on seeing the list, so that we will know who it was that paid off the victims to keep them quiet. DONALD TRUMP IS ONE OF THEM FOR SURE as in 100%, mcfarm.
If we can just get a few, intimidated, paid off victims to come out, the case against Trump would be sealed.
However, even without them, if I was on the jury and the prosecutor presented the evidence from this thread(not just the tapes but ALL THE EVIDENCE).
I would have to follow the law and find Donald Trump guilty.
The circumstantial evidence of his guilt is as powerful as I've ever seen in my life and an objective jury would likely find him guilty.
We already had 1 victim come forward with DIRECT evidence a decade ago but Trump paid her off and intimidated her a decade ago. If this causes her or other victims to get the courage to come forward(again) then we have the direct evidence to complete the case against Trump. I predict, at least 50% chance of a victim(s) now coming forward because this will make them less fearful and they WILL BE SOUGHT OUT to testify compared to being suppressed by the powerful predators, like Donald J Trump.
https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/legal-defenses/circumstantial-evidence/
Circumstantial evidence is proof of a fact or set of facts from which one could infer the fact in question. For example, that a suspect is seen running away from a murder scene with a weapon in hand is circumstantial evidence he committed the murder. This contrasts with direct evidence, which directly proves the fact in question. An eyewitness who testifies to seeing the suspect shoot the victim is direct evidence.
Both direct and circumstantial evidence are considered legitimate forms of proof in federal and state courts. A person may be convicted of a crime based on circumstantial proof alone. And indeed, with the prevalence of mistaken identification and false testimony, inferential proof is oftentimes thought to be even more reliable than direct proof.
+++++++++++++++++++=
This is just 1 of his REAL victims that have been afraid and paid to stay silent:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/113255/#113469
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770
+++++++++++++++++
mcfarm,
You are in complete denial here but again, the ONLY thing missing are some of the victims of Trump's crimes to come forward. Even if they stay afraid and paid, HE IS STILL GUILTY based on the enormous circumstantial evidence that is 100%, one sided and proving of his crimes.
Sorry, man. His actions and lies this year, only make him look MORE guilty.
Getting Maxwell(who already committed perjury in this case-but they dropped that change to focus on the main ones) to lie for a pardon from Trump is EXACTLY the strategy that Trump has been using for 35 years to keep the victims quiet............pay them off, like he did Stormy Daniels, who got greedy (this time with Maxwell's freedom) or threaten them, like with a 10 billion lawsuit- Wall Street Journal-which couldn't be intimidated.
If we can get this victim above to come forward again or any of the many others..........the case against him will be ROCK SOLID.
When this discussion started earlier in the month, I was in the camp that Trump's guilt had not been proven and I gave him the benefit of the doubt initially.
The massive amount of 1 sided, overwhelming circumstantial evidence that shows Trump's guilt since then, is too much for me to not adjust my opinion using the authentic, legally admissible authentic facts. \
Donald J. Trump, in my opinion here and if I was a juror listening to the facts of the case is guilty of committing the same crimes as his best friend, Jeffrey Epstein did.
In fact they did this together on numerous occasions. ALL the powerful, LEGALLY ADMISSIBLE circumstantial evidence against him shows this.
What would change my mind?
Maxwell lying under oath to get out of prison early?
Not!!!!!
That his victims are paid and afraid and so we don't have their testimony?
Not!!!!
That circumstantial evidence doesn't count?
Not!!!!
Honestly, I've wracked my brain to find reasons that he didn't really do this, applying the skepticism of using the scientific method to consider the opposite position.
I can't find a reason, which is how objective scientists know with confidence that their conclusions are solid ones.
Ironically, the same justice system that targeted him and was weaponized just before and during his 1st term has now been turned into the Donald J Trump fan club.
They will likely continue to follow his directives and do things favorable for President Trump, including covering up his pedophilia crimes or anything else he did in the past related to the Epstein case.
His Deputy Attorney General (and personal lawyer) met with Maxwell for 2 days last week as part of their strategy to protect President Trump.
++++++++++++++
Same thing with Epstein‘s supposed suicide and the overwhelming circumstantial evidence that shows otherwise.
Except the autopsy is DIRECT evidence and it showed strangulation was more likely.
And the doctoring of the evidence by the prison to alter the video tapes is direct evidence of them covering it up.
Michael Wolff is sitting on a trove of 100 hours of interviews with Jeffrey Epstein and says he sent the disgraced financier a message only hours before his death.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2025/07/20/the-wolff-epstein-tapes/
JONATHAN ALTER:
Why did the friendship end?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
It ended over real estate. In 2004, Epstein believed he was the high bidder on a Palm Beach house at $36 million and took Trump to see it and to give him advice on moving the swimming pool. Trump then promptly went around his back and outbid him at $40 million, though he likely didn’t have $40 million; Epstein believed Trump was fronting for someone and threatened to sue him. Epstein believed Trump then informed the police in Palm Beach that he had a never-ending stream of underage girls in and out of his house there, and thus began his long years of legal peril.
JONATHAN ALTER:
All of this was about ten years before you talked to Epstein about his relationship with Trump?
MICHAEL WOLFF:
Yes. The real estate incident was the same as the one involving a Russian oligarch [Dmitry Rybolovlev] buying the property from Trump for $95 million two years later [in 2008].
+++++++++++++++++
https://www.axios.com/2025/07/28/trump-jeffrey-epstein-island-visit
Trump is blatantly lying AGAIN! Epstein never invited him to the island. Their friendship ended for good in 2004 as Epstein himself indicated above. Epstein Island didn't exist while Trump and Epstein were best friends! They separated for good in 2004.
++++++++++++++++
Trumps continuing to lie and lie and lie about this, 1 after the other is exactly what a guilty person does when the truth doesn't back them. Even though Trumps pathological lying defines who he is.
However, what he's trying to do here is make a case that he was never on Epstein Island which is where most of the crimes committed by Epstein occurred, so he's innocent. However, Trump and Epstein raped under aged girls well before Epstein Island existed for over a decade in fact. We have the testimony of 1 of them that was made afraid and got paid to shut up a decade ago. If this topic being exposed can assist them to generate the courage, along with their support systems to speak up now, then we'll have the victims coming out.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770
In the most recent suit, Trump’s accuser asserted that while she was exploring a modeling career in 1994, she attended a series of parties at the Manhattan home of prominent investor Jeffrey Epstein. She alleges that during those parties the real estate mogul tied her to a bed and raped her. She also claimed Epstein raped her during that series of gatherings
I plucked out paragraph??? Really?? All I did was post paragraph that you picked and labeled absolute fact that Trump was guilty. Seems to of hit a soft spot for sure with your response. There is no evidence and will not be until the ghosts in this case are outed. And not soul on this earth knows when that will be.
Was talking to a friend last nite and we got to comparing Trumps cad like behavior to JFK's and the difference in the coverage between the two. Seems as of this day unless more comes from either history of either man that their behaviors were eerily similar but JFK is labeled Sir Lancelot in Camelot Trump is the evil devil reincarnate. Only difference to date is the Kennedys actually stole an election and were in bed with the mafia to do it and Trump won the old fashioned way, he out worked everybody else.
Thanks, mcfarm!
You left out the key element here.
Trump paid and raped underage girls as the decade+ best friend of the world's most notorious, convicted pedophile.
Kennedy had numerous affairs on his wife with CONSENTING ADULT women. A violation of his wedding vows but not against the law.
You don't see the difference?
+++++++++++++++
mcfarm,
Let me ask you a specific question about something.
What is your opinion about men that are predators of underage girls?
Do you have any daughters or grand daughters?
What if you found out, when they were under 18 that a couple of rich and powerful men raped one of them?
++++++++++++++++++
mcfarm states: Only difference to date is the Kennedys actually stole an election and were in bed with the mafia to do it and Trump won the old fashioned way, he out worked everybody else.
++++++++++++++++
See also: Electoral fraud in the United States
There were widespread allegations of vote fraud, especially in Texas, where Kennedy's running mate Lyndon B. Johnson was Senator, and Illinois, home of Mayor Richard J. Daley's powerful Chicago political machine.[92] The two states were important because if Nixon had won both of them, he would have been elected president with 270 electoral votes, one more than the 269 needed to win the election. Republican senators such as Everett Dirksen and Barry Goldwater claimed vote fraud "played a role in the election",[89] and that Nixon actually won the national popular vote. Earl Mazo, a journalist who was Nixon's biographer, made accusations of voter fraud.[89]
Nixon's campaign staff urged him to pursue recounts and challenge the validity of Kennedy's victory in several states, especially Illinois, Missouri, and New Jersey, where large majorities in Catholic precincts handed Kennedy the election;[89] however, Nixon gave a speech three days after the election, stating that he would not contest the election
++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++
It's been over 4 years since Donald Trump lost the 2020 election by hundreds of tests and every authentic measure and he still whines on and on with his FAKE election steal nonsense.
Nixon was a real gentleman with class and with the 100% diametrically opposed polar opposite demeanor as President Trump. President Nixon, generated tremendous global respect, including his wonderful work, reaching out to connect us with China.
Trump has alienated many countries. Canadians went from being our closest allies to hating our presidents guts and distancing themselves from the United States. I know this as a rock solid fact from having a very close personal relationship with several Canadians thru my wife's business there(I help her). My wife, Deb is in Toronto, Canada this entire week on a business trip.
His Watergate crimes were like a parking ticket compared to Trump's crimes, especially his Insurrection, trying to overturn the 2020 election he lost and this latest crime, violating under age girls, using his power and money to make the world a worse place to satiate his pathetic, pathological canal urges as a predator against women AND UNDERAGE GIRLS.
History treated Nixon badly because of his real Watergate crimes that he got busted for but he was an awesome president that led our country without the divisiveness of recent presidents and with tremendous character, that included admitting when he lost because his interest, was sincerely for the best of the country.
Donald Trump has always put Donald Trump ahead of everything and everybody. Including laws, our country, people/human beings and underage girls in this case.
Hey Mike,
You said, “Trump paid and raped underage girls as the decade+ best friend of the world's most notorious, convicted pedophile.”
What I don’t understand is why you’re saying this like it’s a certainty when there’s no concrete absolute proof as of yet. He may very well have and it wouldn’t surprise me at all, but in all fairness we don’t know this at this stage.
Hi Larry,
Glad you asked so everybody can have the clarification (again) that is so important here.
Please read my previous post(s) I answered that crystal clearly with my analysis of what circumstantial evidence is and how it's used in court to prove guilt. I realize these lengthy threads can sometimes be a tedious read, so I copied the post below again for you.
The circumstantial evidence here against Trump is way beyond reasonable doubt to prove his guilt.
In fact, I applied the scientific method and assumed the opposite position and that he is innocent using the same circumstantial evidence and found my position to be exactly wrong every single time.
By metmike - July 28, 2025, 7:39 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/113255/#113479
+++++++++==
You can scroll through the piles of circumstantial evidence in this thread. I'm not going to keep repeating it over and over and over unless you want me to.
4pm: Let me give you the summary. Trump and Epstein were best friends from the late 80's until 2004. Epstein is the world's most famous CONVICTED pedophile and was a predator during those same years, often at parties that he hosted with ONLY him and Trump and topless girls. Trumps OWN words about Epstein liking them "on the young side".
What are the chances that Trump didn't know that Epstein was a predator of underage girls as he absurdly claims?
Who would hang out with the world's most famous pedophile and his underage girls unless THEY TOO were partaking. Donald Trump had 1,000 other places he could have been at as a rich and powerful man but he repeatedly chose to BE WITH EPSTEIN and his underage girls.
We have countless, items that all support and corroborate this. Flight logs, party pictures, other pictures with topless girls, a birthday card/letter, Epstein's 100 hour interview.
We also have numerous stories from girls at his beauty pageants about how he walked into their dressing room while they were naked and said things like "I've seen it all before" Dozens of stories from them and others of Trump putting his hands on their butts or breasts or kissing them on the lips unexpectedly NOT what they wanted.
I could fill the rest of this thread with different stories. One reason in not posting each one is the possibility that some of them might not be true. I'm trying to stick with only the authentic facts that we know are true with an extremely high probability.
Have we seen an authentic, forensic science authenticated report about the birthday letter from Trump to Epstein that the WSJ published about?
No but I trust that source and their fact checking and everything makes 100% sense that it came from Trump and stated those things.
What circumstantial evidence do we have to show that Trump did not do this? Or to prove any of it wrong?
NONE!
Trump suing the Wall Street Journal for 10 billion and Trump blatantly lying about half a dozen facts that WE KNOW ARE LIES makes me believe the authentic, already 1 sided/overwhelming circumstantial evidence even more.
You left out the key element here.
Trump paid and raped underage girls as the decade+ best friend of the world's most notorious, convicted pedophile From MM
No I did not leave anything out. I simply do not have the evidence to convict Trump of such a dastardly dead.........YET
Thanks very much, mcfarm!
My sources are...........all of them from both sides, in addition to the information that I spend hours gathering from my own independent research and share here.
What are your sources?
16
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https://www.politifact.com/article/2016/oct/18/allegations-about-donald-trump-and-miss-teen-usa-c/
Billado said she told Ivanka Trump (Trump’s daughter), about Donald Trump entering the room while the girls were changing their clothes. Billado remembers Ivanka answering, "Yeah, he does that."
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This is what a rich and powerful pedophile does to get close to beautiful UNDERAGE models!
There are some people distorting the truth/facts against Trump and/or passing on the distorted truth.
I am trying my best to use ONLY verified information that represents the truth and avoiding the other stuff that might be wrong or using quotes of Trump that are not true.
This article CORRECTS the misquoting of Trump(that added the Miss Teen part).
29 July 2025
https://fullfact.org/us/trump-pageant-quote-misleading/
Trumps actual quote:
In an episode of the Howard Stern Show in April 2005, Mr Trump said: “Well I’ll tell you the funniest is that I’ll go backstage before a show and everyone’s getting dressed and ready, and everything else, and, you know, no men anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it, you know, I’m inspecting, I want to make sure everything is good.
“You know, the dresses. ‘Is everyone ok?’ You know they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’ And you see these incredible looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that”.
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Judge for yourself if the "correction" is an indication of an innocent man.
In the early 90s, Donald Trump judged the world’s biggest modelling competition - since hit by allegations of abuse. This is how the people who were there remember it
Three decades on, a very different picture of the competition is beginning to emerge. Over the last six months, the Guardian has spoken to several dozen former Look of the Year contestants, as well as industry insiders, and obtained 12 hours of previously unseen, behind-the-scenes footage. The stories we have heard suggest that Casablancas, and some of the men in his orbit, used the contest to engage in sexual relationships with vulnerable young models. Some of these allegations amount to sexual harassment, abuse or exploitation of teenage girls; others are more accurately described as rape.
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I am not contending that Trump was one of those men at this specific event that had sex with the women(though he might have). Just that we should note............there is no Jeffrey Epstein connection here or on the previous page with the beauty pageants that he bought because of his attraction to the women in the beauty pageants.
We are supposed to believe that he was best friends with Epstein for 15 years and it had nothing to do with their mutual lust for underage girls. That is supposed to be what defined Epstein, the worlds most notorious pedophile but NOT Trump.
The overwhelming, 100% conclusive evidence shows that Trump used his money and power INDEPENDENTLY of the Epstein relationship to surround himself with the worlds most beautiful under age girls.........even BUYING the beauty pageants and doing unacceptable things like walking into their dressing room while they were naked.
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In searching for hours to get more and more information from both sides on this topic, all the information keeps showing the same circumstantial evidence that was already conclusive and beyond a reasonable doubt but now, it's like OMG! How is it that this guy got away with it so long and is now our president!
Answer?
Rich and powerful people do this. They pay off people (like Story Daniels) and threaten/scare them.......10 billion lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal.
However, the WSJ is not a scared teenager that can be paid off and the media (outside of Trump's, fan club-Fox News) is not going to let this go.
And there's the thing. The blatantly condemning circumstantial evidence against Trump here is FOR REAL. This isn't a dumb impeachment because of a phone call in 2018 because the Ds had control of Congress thing.
We all know that our politicians are morally bankrupt people that will do what's best FOR THEM.
This will be a test for them. Continuing to support Trump because they know its best for their political careers or realizing, suddenly that they are defending a man that has a very long history of being predator of, not just women but UNDERAGE women and doing it for decades.
None of these incidents are isolated. They crystal clearly define who Donald Trump was for over 2 decades! Even WITHOUT his best friend, Jeffrey Epstein at his side.
I feel so sad for all the women, especially the underage/teenagers that Donald Trump has abused and victimized to try to feed his insatiable, pathological lust thru the years.
Then, instead of getting justice, these girls/women have had to witness this sexual predator becoming the most powerful man in the world. The same power that he applied to victimize them.
These girls, now women(and the adult women) deserve justice after all this time.
Look where Jeffrey Epstein is. Very few people feel bad for the guy. He got what he deserved.
Look where his best friend for 15 years and fellow pedophile is,. The White House. It's never too late for justice to be served!
For new readers and the umpteenth time for regulars, I voted for Donald Trump last November because I believed him that he would end the war in Ukraine quickly.
I also voted for him in 2016 (but not 2020).
I am NOT TDS and have defended him numerous times when objective ethics called for it.
On this topic, however after my comprehensive, still ongoing investigation results, I just feel quite sad. Very enlightened and grateful for that but also sad at the same time.
Especially for all these abused females but also that people like me actually supported him so much. Even knowing that he had no character or respect for other human beings (outside of guys like Putin and Netanyahu).
But I honestly had no idea how bad he really is until this month!
listening to a radio guy this morning and he has some revelation exactly what Trump should do. This is brilliant. Trump should tell it all he says. Where he was every second. Who he was with every minute. What he did. And then it would be over he says. Yes, some brilliance. Well he should come here and read a few of MM posts. MM is emblematic of the press that has treated Trump like dirt for decades. No sooner would Trump release everything that the press would rise up in rebellion. I see where you released everything they would say. But just a minute. Where you at midnite on aug the 8th 2012. I do not see where you were and who you were with and on and on and on. No matter what Trump does it will not be enough for the press and tds'ers. Never in a million years it will not satisfy them.
And that is sad. Sad for everyone because all they would have to do is have the character to admit that they do not have the guts to admit they could very well be wrong.
I contend this behavior does nothing for Trump. Little girls are not in his nature. He is some awful cad but not this, However if some day it comes out I will call him out
One more crazy theory. Some think Epstein is alive and under cover and will come out with the story. I will guess after the revelations on the deep state over throwing our country this theory looks a lot more likely than just week ago. Swallow hard and admit it.
Thanks very much for your opinion, mcfarm!
This won't be a debate. The facts gushing out here. Readers can use those to form their own opinions, including what you state.
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Rs trying to completely bury this using deception and pretending thats not what they're doing. Many of them know the potentially, very damaging information about Trump in there.
WOW!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNMGFMEFYFw
They have no idea how bad this really is!
wow.... Booker? Cory Booker? that Booker? He knows exactly what? He has been known to know exactly nothing about everything ya know. He and AOC go way back, some even think they were twins at one time.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/29/politics/epstein-trump-falling-out-analysis
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metmike: Trump is LYING again about, yet another element with this story. This time, how they parted ways. This new crazy story came out of nowhere and is Trump's pathological lying mind doing, what he thinks is damage control but he's digging his hole deeper and deeper. Epstein, on his tapes also tells a completely different story.
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This was another catastrophic blunder by Trump. The WSJ need only prove that they acted in good faith to win and they can do 10 times that using the discovery process.
Think about the huge pile of circumstantial evidence in just this thread compiled by a yahoo scientist in Indiana. More than enough X 3 to prove the WSJ justified in printing the story.
They have a team of the best investigative reporters in the world AND they will be allowed to use the discovery process to gain legal access to things that the rest of us can't see.
It's extremely likely that President Trump is the author of this card. His defense has been that he doesn't draw pictures..........when there are dozens of examples of him drawing pictures that the WSJ can use to show that he's lying. He has no defense. The WSJ has everything on their side. The WSJ is likely holding back on some of the evidence right now because they want to use it in court.
There are alot of things that could happen. 1 of them is not Trump winning and the WSJ losing. Not unless Trump could somehow use his own handpicked judge and completely control the process which ain't happenin with the WSJ!
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Trump was asked specifically whether Epstein had stolen Giuffre, who was one of Epstein's most prominent abuse survivors and led the charge calling for his arrest. Giuffre, who died by suicide in April, has said she met Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell while she was working at Mar-a-Lago as a teenager.
"I think she worked at the spa," Trump said. "I think so. I think that was one of the people. He stole her, and by the way, she had no complaints about us, as you know, none whatsoever."
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Trump is 1,000% positive about everything he has opinions on, but just "thinks" the most noteworthy, well known victim of Jeffrey Epstein, who also died by suicide just over 3 months ago, worked for him???
If he was telling the truth, he would know absolutely who this person is and whether she worked for him. Especially since he's now telling us that Epstein's stealing her from him (when she was underage) along with others (that worked for him in "the spa" ) was so egregious that it caused him to completely cut ties and to end the 15 year best friendship(according to Epstein's description of their relationship.
Almost every day has been worse for Trump since this story broke earlier this month. His mouth and new facts are digging his hole deeper and deeper.
If he keeps this up, his hole may come up on the other side of the planet and he can meet with the leader of China without needing to use an airplane to get there
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Oh Oh!! Busted badly again. She stopped working for Trump in 2000! Trump made positive comments about Epstein in public in 2002 and also sent him the birthday card after that. The Trump Epstein break up didn't happen until 2004!!! There is a 4 year gap that contradicts Trumps story as well as it contradicting everything else we knew earlier.
Trump must have had some sort of reason to tell this lie. The reason is not clear.............but we might find out what he thinks this is covering for in the future.
One thing I do not understand, didn't the Biden admiration have all this evidence, and they hated Trump, why didn't they release the info?
Hi cutworm!
Bill Clinton was also a serial predator of women and obviously underage girls. The Clinton's have great power being used to suppress this information. There are other names that we don't know about that likely include people from both parties that are keeping us from knowing who they are.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Jeffrey Epstein
By metmike - July 26, 2025, 11:12 p.m.
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Apparently, Clinton made numerous visits to Epstein Island.
After Trump and Epstein broke up in 2004, Trump continued to prey on women and underage girls for another decade, INDEPENDENT OF EPSTEIN........even as Epstein's exploits/crimes became public knowledge.
Trump has, so far not been held accountable. Nor Clinton or the many other rich and powerful predators of women and underage girls. The same ones that killed Epstein to protect themselves and possibly played a role in the SUDDEN deaths of 3 of the victims the past several years to keep them quiet.
I can't say much on those deaths without much more information, like I/we have on Trump(and Epstein).
FINALLY, this is waking up the MSM(not Fox) to do some critical thinking and investigative reporting!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-jail-video-investigation/
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I had mentioned several of these items that don't make sense years ago and continue to insist that the prison and government, now clearly busted with several lies/inconsistencies with the video is covering up the truth. Failed camera's, spliced video's, the missing minute and guards that slept much of the night are things I brought up in the past. That goes with removing Epstein's cellmate the day before, after taking him OFF suicide watch.
What are the chances of all those things happening coincidentally, the same night that Jeffrey Epstein hangs himself.
Then, experts reviewing the autopsy tell us that its indicative of a strangulation because of the damage and not the hanging of himself from leaning forward, using a bed-sheet that the government claims caused it.......like 1 in a million??
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CBS News analysis of the newly released Jeffrey Epstein jail video finds inconsistencies with the government's claims about what the footage shows, raising questions about the credibility of the federal investigation. CBS News Justice correspondent Scott MacFarlane breaks down the findings. The FBI declined to comment on the CBS News report.
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There's a 99.9% chance that Epstein was killed by the same rich and powerful people that victimized these women/girls. Trump and Clinton FOR SURE victimized these young women/girls based on overwhelming, beyond reasonable doubt, LEGAL CIRCUMSTANTIAL Evidence. Prince Andrew is also 1 of them with certainty!
NEW YORK (AP) — A woman who says she was sexually trafficked to Britain’s Prince Andrew by Jeffrey Epstein accepted $500,000 in 2009 to settle her lawsuit against the American millionaire and anyone else “who could have been included as a potential defendant,” according to a court record unsealed Monday.
The prince’s lawyers say that language should bar Virginia Giuffre from suing Andrew now, even though he wasn’t a party to the original settlement.
The private 2009 legal deal resolved Giuffre’s allegations that Epstein had hired her as a teenager to be a sexual servant at his estate in Palm Beach, Florida.
Andrew was not named in that lawsuit, but Giuffre had alleged in it that Epstein had flown her around the world for sexual encounters with numerous men “including royalty, politicians, academicians, businessmen and/or professional and personal acquaintances.”
WATCH: How prosecutors proved Ghislaine Maxwell was Epstein’s ‘enabler-in-chief’
The settlement unsealed Monday also doesn’t mention Andrew, but contains a single paragraph saying it protects anyone “who could have been included as a potential defendant” from being sued by Giuffre.
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What is especially interesting is that Trump, yesterday claimed that this was one of the employees that Epstein stole from him that caused their best friendship to break up.
Virginian Giuffre is now DEAD. She suddenly died by suicide just 3 months ago.
2 other victims also suddenly died in the last several years.
Virginia Giuffre was 41 when she died in Neergabby, Australia
Thursday 01 May 2025 16:28 EDT
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While I am certain, well beyond a reasonable doubt that Donald Trump was a CRIMINAL predator of countless women, including underage girls associated with his Epstein relationship as well as independent of Epstein, what I would like to know is if he has played a key role in killing people, like Jeffrey Epstein and possibly the 3 victims?
Somebody killed Epstein and probably some of the victims. For sure it was one or more of the rich powerful people. It's unlikely that we will never know that part of it but if this can generate new found courage for these victims to break their HUSH MONEY agreements and threats(clearly legit based on who they already killed) and come forward to speak out then, at least we can hold some of them accountable, including those mentioned above.
https://www.axios.com/2025/07/30/democrats-epstein-documents-trump-justice-department
By the numbers: According to a YouGov poll released Tuesday, 82% of Americans think the government should release all the documents it has about the case.
What we're watching: The senators requested an answer from the DOJ by Aug. 15.
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This is what I think will happen:
1. Trump will authorize his people to release alot of stuff that doesn't implicate him or mention him. Some of it is likely to be edited to REMOVE HIM.
2. Maxwell will lie under oath to get the get out of prison early deal that Trump promised her.
What is the reasoning?
1. Trump MUST start releasing a bunch of stuff ASAP to try stop the serious bleeding. There is no choice.
2. What are the chances that President Trump or his people would release information that incriminates him?
Answer: 0.0001%
3. What are the chances that Trump's private attorney and #2 in power in our justice department (after Pam Bondi) met with Maxwell and her attorney for 2 days, was there with an objective different than to help fulfill Trumps latest schemes for escaping being held accountable for his crimes against women/girls.
Anwer: 0.001%
4. This is the same man that still insists to this very day that the 2020 election was stolen from him. He did everything in his power to try to overturn that election for 2+ months to make himself the winner, culminating in Donald Trump's treasonous, Constitution violating and American people betraying Insurrection on January 6, 2021.
5. He managed to survive that and come back to be president, so never count him out. Ironically, his MAGA people may have been ok with #4 but being a predator of underage girls is considered the bottom dredge of society so that even hardened criminals will spit on you for it!