I agree with you, joj!

Just agreeing to not join NATO will not end the war.

1. That was Putin's offer/deal in 2021 BEFORE he threatened a war. Also early in 2022, early in the war.

2.  NATO/Biden and their puppet completely rejected that, shut down negotiations and told Putin that they would fight him to get Ukraine. Not just for NATO to get into Ukraine anymore but it raised the stakes, which included, potentially land in UKRAINE going to Russia, depending on the results of the war.

3. Russia won. NATO lost at the expense of the Ukrainians they used to weaken Russia. 

4. We don't pretend it's 2021 again and go back to the deal before NATO decided to fight a winner take all war against Russia. Russia had suffered tremendous losses  to win this winner take all war. 

5. There is no venue in which the entities have a battle, where the winner gives back what the battle was over to the loser at the end. In a chess match, for instance an opponent can offer a draw at many points in the battle which would mean both sides get 1/2 point.  If the draw is rejected and the game is played out, the side that loses............loses EVERYTHING at the end. They don't get to go back and receive the draw offer from earlier in the game. 

6. Russia won decidedly, Ukraine lost decidedly and Putin is exploiting his win and advantage to the maximum right now. It's very sad and I don't like it either but Putin is a ruthless killer that cares nothing except the best interests of Russia against an enemy(NATO) that wants to destroy him. NATO insisting on fighting the war to get Ukraine is evidence of their continued desire to maximize their expansion at Russia's expense no matter what it takes.

7. Zelensky works for NATO. He sacrificed his people and country to fight the NATO war. To be their salesman to sell  support for the war in the NATO countries. Putin is a brutal, evil man but people will a lick of military leadership skills  or good judgement don't INTENTIONALLY decide to have a war of attrition, using their people against a much more powerful army with more than 3 times the soldiers. A war that was impossible to win from the get go by every reasonable standard.

8. However, NATO counts dead Russians and a weaker Russia as a key metric to measure success in this war..........not caring about the profound damage to Ukraine/Ukrainians. 

9. The US Military-Industrial-Political-Media complex has had tremendous profits/ratings and benefits from the war.  Their incentives are not really to support Ukrainians. You don't send them on no hope of success, inevitable suicide missions, that gained nothing and lost everything.  Again, this was going to be the outcome based on every reasonable assessment of the 2 armies BEFORE the war. 

Previous thread:

                Trumps latest on Ukraine            

                            43 responses |            

                Started by metmike - Oct. 17, 2025, 2:46 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/115286/

joj,

I realize that on many of these points, we appear to be strongly disagreeing. However, I contend that we agree exactly on the most important ones. 

1. For the war to end. I actually voted for Trump, knowing that, as the most powerful person on the planet he had the best chance to end it with his promise to end it indicating his desire to do that.

2. We both mourn the tremendous loss of human lives which have been unnecessarily wasted and I'm certain that you will agree with me, that includes the Russians dying in the war.

3. We both mourn the loss of additional territory from Ukraine to Russia.

4. We both detest Putin and recognize him as a diabolical man that has been committing war crimes in Ukraine for almost 4 years.

5. The only thing we disagree on was the decisions made by NATO (and dynamics) to intentionally fight a winner take all war, using Ukrainians and Zelensky.  There is no denying the part of it that Putin is responsible for. We agree with most of that. However, the difference lies in seeing NATO as "the good guys".  I see them as diabolical and very much responsible for the consequences of this war. They've been provoking Russia for decades, with a crystal clear objective of destroying Russia based on the authentic evidence.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/114033/#114042

 This gave Putin the legit incentive to behave this way. Legit because he's the president of RUSSIA and NATO's objective is to DESTROY Russia. I'm convinced of this.  There is no question that Putin is convinced that he is DEFENDING Russia and actually, although I vehemently disagree with his methods, I totally agree that he not only is defending Russia, he just succeeded in defending Russia from NATO, that was, with near certainty going to get Ukraine (the Motherland) if Putin didn't do something extreme to stop them.

Lack of understanding this dynamic FROM PUTIN's perspective is the source of most of our disagreement.

It doesn't mean that I agree with what Putin has done. However, NATO/Biden/Zelensky totally understood/understand where he's coming from and made disastrous decisions by intentionally discarding that view and instead, focused on the "destroying Russia" objective, then completely twisted the facts like a pretzel to make it appear like Putin is a madman and he's coming for Europe next.

There is a near 0% chance that Putin wants  this based on ALL the authentic facts. He is finally taking a stand(that he truly considers defensive) after decades of failing to stop NATO and now, the war has provided him an opportunity of uniting the Motherland with Russia.

We had every opportunity of preventing this prior to 2022 but completely ignored Putin, COMPLETELY IGNORED HIM and took him up on the winner take all war instead. We lost.

6. I'm sure you understand the Military-Industrial-Political-Media complex better than anybody and know that much of the propaganda we get comes from message gatekeepers with sources that are benefiting from the war or at least biased/not understanding the true dynamics.