Several posters here keep talking about it as a threat to our nation. Can anyone tell me who comprises this nefarious group, and what their objective is ?
I expect to hear a lot of opinions, but does anyone have any facts ?
no have not seen any "facts" carl....well other than several fbi agents and doj officials own words. You might want to refer to stroyk, page. McCabe, Or and any number of other 7th floor deep state creeps
Carl,
cfdr is our expert on the deep state.
This term has been known for some time and really got alot of attention during Bush 2's reign of disaster...................especially with regards to its influence in the Iraq war.
Actually, it's been referred to as the Industrial, Military(bureaucracy/political)complex for decades.
The article below does a decent job explaining it.
From The Miami Herald:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article198038824.html
"But is that any less crazy than the fact — emphasis on fact — that the Pentagon planted a spy in the Nixon White House to steal secrets from the wastebaskets? Or that the CIA was dosing unsuspecting civilians with LSD to see if it would make them receptive to mind control? Or that the government was spying on people through their Xbox video games? (Edward Snowden, the rogue National Security Agency subcontractor who spilled the secrets about the Xbox, told The Nation magazine: “There’s definitely a Deep State. Trust me, I’ve been there.”)
"Even observers who are dubious about Trump’s claims that he’s the victim of a massive Washington cabal believe he may be facing a much milder version of the Deep State: stiff resistance from the government’s gargantuan bureaucracy, which, with its civil-service protections, stays in place as presidential administrations come and go.
Long-lived bureaucracies start to resemble living organisms that fight to protect their own turf, from each other and even more from elected officials, which the bureaucrats tend to regard as temporary pests who will be moving on soon."
"President Eisenhower, seen here during a news conference at the White House, spoke of a “military-industrial complex,” which some scholars say was akin to what some call the Deep State. "
I broke this up into 2 posts because it's so long:
What is unfortunate is that President Trump embellishes on almost every topic that he discusses and it has destroyed his credibility on many subjects(except his blind followers).
For example, he has turned the expression of "fake news" into meaning any time a media source reports something that he doesn't like.............but there really is fake news and there really, really is subjective, spinning and twisting of the news by much of the media, which has increased exponentially in the last 2 years to use against him.
There also really is a deep state and it really is fighting to resist Donald Trump and his policies more than any other president in history(mostly because other presidents were politicians playing the political game correctly and Trump writes his own rules)
This "deep state" are the career bureaucrats, including the justice/intelligence agencies, corrupt FDA and corrupt EPA. I made several lengthy posts at the old forum on the widespread, verifiable corruption at the FDA and EPA. It is absolutely mind boggling.
Because President Trumps credibility on such things has been damaged by himself and the media, anybody not a Trump supporter writes off the topic of a "deep state" out to get him as just a conspiracy theory from a lunatic.
However, it is a real thing. Knowing what we do about human nature, it's not hard to understand why these people, who have careers based on status quo and often personally enriching dynamics in place would have bias. They all vote and clearly have political preferences. They also often have no accountability.
Assuming that they are all altruistic Mother Theresa's that treat everybody fairly and equally is very naive. If you think that, then you probably think that they didn't find massive evidence of the crimes that Hillary Clinton committed.
You probably believe that Bill Clinton and Lorreta Lynch just happened to bump into each other and for 25 minutes, talked about grandkids and the golf game that Bill never played in Phoenix.
After the informant contacted the Phoenix tv station and they got busted discussing the arrangement/fix, that's when Lynch had to step down and that's when James Comey suddenly entered the picture as the justice department spokesperson to report on the Hillary Clinton investigation................which, as we all know resulted in no charges filed, even though there was massive evidence they could have used to charge and convict her.
Hillary Clinton was protected because she is the person the "deep state" wanted to win the election.
" Actually, it's been referred to as the Industrial, Military(bureaucracy/political) complex for decades."
OK, I can live with that.
" ... the government’s gargantuan bureaucracy, which, with its civil-service protections, stays in place as presidential administrations come and go.
" Long-lived bureaucracies start to resemble living organisms that fight to protect their own turf, from each other and even more from elected officials, which the bureaucrats tend to regard as temporary pests who will be moving on soon."
Mike, that's Human Nature and nothing new, Dem or Pub Administration. Your post is long on opinion, but you do offer a couple of facts.
1) " ... the Pentagon planted a spy in the Nixon White House "
" The Joint Chiefs' espionage effort was not born in a vacuum. Nixon's style of governance was highly secretive ...The military often felt cut out of crucial decision-making on matters of national security, foreign policy, and the conduct of the war in Vietnam. "
" ... Scarcely alone in his views, Zumwalt marveled "that rational men could think that running things like that could have any other result than 'leaks' and 'spying' and all-around paranoia." Indeed, he said, "they had created a system in which 'leaks' and 'spying' were everyday and essential elements."
2) " dosing unsuspecting civilians with LSD "
Sorry CIA. No excuse is acceptable.
All in all, I'm not convinced of a vast conspiracy, with secret meetings to discuss strategies . It's business as usual..
The general public has there own definition
That being the military/industrial concept is what it is or business as usual.
The alphabet soup of agencies is clearly all considered, by the public, in the same pot of public opinion, and is generally or publicly referred to as the "Deep State?
The general public [by and large] could care less about text book definitions or what was considered the Deep State some time before many were even born.
Thanks God for the "Deep State".
They've caught many of the Criminals Trump has surrounded himself with. Yeah but they spied on Trump! Oh heavens to Betsy! The "spied" on a criminal. Yeah but we voted him in knowing he was a criminal so it doesn't count.
"Your post is long on opinion, but you do offer a couple of facts." " I'm not convinced of a vast conspiracy, with secret meetings to discuss strategies"
Carl,
Actually, I gave you the quintessential example of a deep state secret meeting between Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch in June 2016 to discuss the arrangements of the deal which to overlook all of the criminal evidence in the investigation resulting in no charges...........so that Hillary could be the next president.
If not for the whistle blower contacting the Phoenix tv station anonomously(so they could be out there to witness it) we would have never known................like we never know about all the other secret meetings.
Unless you believe that they really stumbled on to each other and talked about grandkids and Bills golf game that never happened.
Suddenly, James Comey became the spokesperson(and was trained by Lynch on what to say) instead of Lorreta Lynch after she got busted with her deep state arrangement.
I can't offer you a better and more clear example of the deep state, so if you don't want to believe it happened then I just can't do a better job explaining and showing you.
https://www.newsweek.com/loretta-lynch-bill-clinton-tarmac-meeting-details-comey-749995
If the meeting was a chance crossing of paths as Lynch insisted, how did the person(whistle blower) that contacted the Phoenix tv station know that there would be a chance crossing of paths between Lynch and Clinton well before it occurred?
Answer: They couldn't have because it had been planned. Since it was a secret meeting with no notes or recordings taken(intentionally) and was lied about, with absolute certainty and just happened to be near the end of the justice departments investigation of Hillary and the Clintons and just happened before Lynn stepped down and Comey up and Comey announced no charges would be filed....................what do you think they discussed?
Anybody that pretends to not know is displaying blatant bias or is very naive.
The news media falls under the category of being blatantly biased by accepting Loretta Lynch's lame explanation..........then going on.
Another important item to note: The Deep State" is not just people currently employed by the government. There are some very powerful people who dial in their input. Bill Clinton, was shown here to be playing a key role in the Deep States arrangement discussed at this secret meeting. Both Clintons, being part of the recent deep state have been protected from accountability for crimes(Clinton Foundation).
I prefer to spend my time here as moderator, trying to develop non political discussions. However, in this case, Carl has asked a couple of times for others to explain the deep state and had not received a substantive response(probably because most people don't really understand it)..........so here it is.
I am always happy to provide insight!
"Thanks God for the "Deep State" "
Nice spin on the corruption of the deep state joj.
When they go after somebody that you don't like.............they are good for the country. When they protect somebody that represented your party so that this person(H.CLinton) could be president, instead of going to prison....... you like them.
Don't get me wrong. There are alot of good people, working for truth, justice and the American way in the deep state. However, you should know that its based on their subjective interpretation with no overseeing entity or accountability to rules and laws that the rest of us must follow............ and without the knowledge of the American people(intentionally).
Millions of Americans (brave soldiers who's families lives were destroyed for a deep state agenda perpetrated on the American people) have been killed in dumb wars.............like Vietnam and Iraq because of the deep state.
If you supported Vietnam and Iraq, and thought our boys coming home in body bags, was worth it, then maybe the deep state is an organization you can be proud of.
If not..................then you are a being a big hypocrite in thanking God for the "Deep State"
Cheer for them to get Trump if you want but just know that you are cheering for an entity with a very long history of being ruthless and effective at accomplishing their agenda.............which does not care about you or me or however many lives they destroy doing it.
I am probably biased, but IMO, the left does not see good and evil. They see "good for us" and "bad for us". If it furthers their agenda, it's good, if it does not, it's bad.
" If not for the whistle blower contacting the Phoenix tv station anonomously (so they could be out there to witness it) we would have never known ................ like we never know about all the other secret meetings. "
Really, Mike, that's quite a stretch. Actually, you might say that I had a secret meeting with Richard Nixon in 1953, when he landed at our base in Japan. He shook my hand ( along with all the other guys on the flight-line ).
" Unless you believe that they really stumbled on to each other and talked about grandkids and Bills golf game that never happened. Suddenly, James Comey became the spokesperson(and was trained by Lynch on what to say) instead of Lorreta Lynch after she got busted with her deep state arrangement. "
If Bill and Lynch were already involved in the Deep State conspiracy to protect Hillary, what could they possibly need a secret meeting for?
Maybe I'm gullible and I'm certainly biased, but I've experienced too many coincidences in my life to believe opinion as fact.
"Maybe I'm gullible and I'm certainly biased, but I've experienced too many coincidences in my life to believe opinion as fact. "
Can I quote you on this? I'm almost certain the opportunity will present itself. :-)
I'm still in Canada, so I do not have access to the book, but there is an excellent book titled "the Deep State" published recently.
IMHO, it is worth the time to read and think about this book. How much democracy do we really have? Probably not nearly as much as we think we have.
Also, here is a link to Sharyl Attkisson talking about a part of this Deep State. You can start viewing at 3:58 if you only want that part.
Of course, isn't the question why we would NOT have a Deep State? Every government becomes corrupt. In fact, everything is "born" with the seeds of its own destruction, IMHO. To think otherwise seems to me to be pure delusion - and that is what the people in power want you to think.
yes cfdr...those naïve and biased individuals better hold on when the deep state turns on them.....power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Right now they actually get a thrill {chris Mathews has a stream down his leg} God, how naïve can they get. When that knock on the door comes late at night they will pray to have some conservative run to their rescue
"I've experienced too many coincidences in my life to believe opinion as fact.
So let's just look at rock solid facts carl. Nothing with opinion below.
1. Bill Clinton met with Loretta Lynch for 30 minutes inside of her plane according to Christopher Sign from ABC15 Phoenix who was there to witness the meeting.
2. Loretta Lynch and Bill Clinton claimed that it was a chance encounter after her plane arrived and before his left.
3. Bill Clinton's plane had been scheduled to take off before her's landed but he intentionally held up his private plane's take off and got out after hers arrived.
4. This is the indisputable evidence that it was planned. The local ABC news crew was there to witness the meeting because a whistle blower had contacted the reporter well ahead of time to tell him that there was going to be a meeting between Lynch and Clinton. Mr. Sign, then met with management at ABC15 and got authorization to cover the meeting. They were there because of the tip from a source that wanted them busted. This fact, is what clearly proves with 100% certainty, that it could not have been a coincidence.
5. Lynch and Clinton both had explanations for exactly what happened, some of it contradicting but the one which was clearly not the truth was, Lynch stated Bill discussed his golf game that he played there. It was easy enough to check and Clinton did no golfing during his brief stay.................and this was Phoenix in June. The temperatures by mid morning were already over 100. A 70 year old man would not be golfing in the hottest place in the country at the hottest time of year.........and he didn't.
6. There was a huge investigation at the time into Hillary Clinton, who was running for president. The investigation was reaching the concluding stages. Loretta Lynch was the head of the justice department(attorney general). Bill Clinton, ex president and husband of Hillary. Both claimed that for 30 minutes they did not talk about anything related to the investigation.
Nothing but facts Carl..............and one of them is that they lied about the meeting being planned.......which busts the theory of coincidence. There were other lies, including the golf game.
Did they talk about the investigation?
Now that would be opinion. I guess that you think tha they didn't.
Great summary, mike.
Again, I've spent nearly all of my life being a Democrat. That party left me - I did not leave it. I now have nothing but contempt for the Democratic Party.
Nice spin Mike.
The issue isn't which team is being investigated by some government body, be it a political government body or an administrative government body. The issue is how we label it and what we are implying with those labels. Carl is spot on in my opinion. Those who bandy about the "deep state" term are ascribing nefarious plots. Are you familiar with the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Jews have great power relative to their numbers but that doesn't mean they, as a group, are trying to take over the world.
And NO, I am not concerned in the least which political team is being investigated. When Clinton was being investigated for lying to a grand jury about sex acts (though it started with land deals in Arkansas) I didn't ascribe the label the "deep state". Nor with Nixon and his corruption.
I'm ok with the term (again labels) military industrial complex because, as Eisenhower pointed out, it seems to have a life of it's own. But that is a far cry from the term "deep state", which begins down the path of implying some nefarious plot by conspirators.
I was a teenager during the Vietnam protest years and I naively believed my government was truthful. Never again have I been that naive. I vehemently opposed the Iraq war in 2003, but I would not ascribe our involvement to the "deep state". Our elected government made that decision. IMO an Al Gore administration would not have done that. As for government functionaries who are the cogs in a vast administrative machine, it would be impossible to vote for each and every person and position. It might add to accountability but it is simply too unwieldy to attempt. We have representative government and we have to live with the clean, honest, hardworking public servants and deal with the corrupt ones.
I think the police forces across our country are, for the most part, honest hardworking, underpaid public servants that put their lives at risk regularly. Are their some racists in uniform whose biases cause them to go afoul of proper procedures? Sure. But I wouldn't declare that there is a deep conspiracy of cops organized to fight a race war. That would be ludicrous!
Again, we are talking about labels here.
wow. want naïve sheep, that post pretty much described that to a T. You have top fbi and doj officials written conversaions with their conspiracy exposed to spy on a candidate for president and then when elected try to over throw that winner and yet you see no deep state. There very own written words in front of you and yet you glibly stumble through life, soon to be in country you will not recognize. Deep state, what deep state? Holy crap
Tim, did I shoot myself in the foot?
mc, you blame the thousands of employees of the FBI and JD for the actions of a few individuals.
Mike, you make a good case for a secret meeting, but can you make a case for the purpose ?
no carl as has been state dozens of times thousands of fbi agents are good and honest people,,,,,we are talking exactly who we mentioned.
Now to your really kind of snarky reply t mike about the Nixon meeting. You do not realize or care because your ox is not getting gored now but you walked right into a major problem. You see our AG Sessions was at a formal dinner with a Russian once. Guess what he recused himself from the entire investigation. Guess what that led to? Right. The Mueller appointment, the fbi using a fake document, getting fake fisa warrants using lies...in other words your Nixon meeting you made light of caused quite a mess in a world now run by the deep state you mock....live with it
https://zerohedge.talking-forex.com/live.html here is another article you no doubt missed but it needs read
"Mike, you make a good case for a secret meeting, but can you make a case for the purpose ? "
The purpose can only be speculated on based on the facts...........like circumstantial evidence in a court room.
I laid out the facts/circumstantial evidence. The main purpose was not to ascert guilt but to provide an example that was asked for about powers(many not elected) who make decisions..............as in the deep state.
I consider military decisions for numerous decades as being controlled by the deep state. One could write a book on our agenda in the Middle East.............actually, there have been dozens written on that.
If you think that our government is not telling you everything about their agenda in the Middle East, then who do you think is hiding the entire truth and why? It actually has been proven, that for decades, our interests in the oil supply there has driven our actions.
If you agree with that, then you are agreeing that there is a deep state........people controlling our Middle East actions for political agenda that we are not told about.
If our government does this in the Middle East(which everybody would have to agree on) why would we think that they would ONLY do it with regards to Middle East policies?
The government blatantly lied to us about the Vietnam War for decades and their use of agent orange(millions of gallons of a toxic chemical) was a heinous war crime that nobody ever had to be held accountable for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange
"Up to four million people in Vietnam were exposed to the defoliant. The government of Vietnam says as many as 3 million people have suffered illnesses because of Agent Orange.[3] The Red Cross of Vietnam estimates that up to 1 million people are disabled or have health problems as a result of Agent Orange contamination.[4] The United States government has challenged these figures as being unreliable.[5] The chemical is capable of damaging genes, resulting in deformities among the offspring of exposed victims. The U.S. government has documented higher cases of leukemia, Hodgkin's lymphoma, and various kinds of cancer in exposed veterans. Agent Orange also caused enormous environmental damage in Vietnam. Over 3,100,000 hectares (31,000 km2 or 11,969 mi2) of forest were defoliated. Defoliants eroded tree cover and seedling forest stock, making reforestation difficult in numerous areas. Animal species diversity sharply reduced in contrast with unsprayed areas."
Here is how we know that the government continued to lie to us, even after they got busted on this...................they were spraying it on THE CROPS and destroyed the fertility of the land for decades. They claimed to be only using it to defoliate the jungle vegetation related to the fighting but went much farther than that and used it to kill their food source and ability to use agriculture to produce more food.
This is diabolical!
This is one of the most blatant examples of what the deep state will do to accomplish their agenda................and the ones who know that this will kill many innocent people needlessly..............don't give a shit because they have no accountability. Only their agenda matters. Selling their agenda to the American people with convincing sounding marketing schemes is top priority...........manipulating us to think what they want us to think about realms that they intend to affect!
Deep State.
When I call it the deep state, you want to disagree because you don't think there is a deep state. There is no other way to explain the Vietnam or Iraq war.
And these people don't just emerge every couple of decades and cause wars............they are there every day with a constant agenda and no accountability.
Labels.
joj and his impersonation of vandy have reached new levels....and its not a pretty site
Good job MetMike.
Deep state is a concept of right wing, populists and an attempt to destroy political enemies. ....
And it's working.
actually joj the left detested most everything bout Brennan 10 year ago and now he is the superman so what was that you just said? Of course not to mention the left pushing all the Kennedy assassination/deep state stories....guess now the left believes it was not true after all?
