I absolutely agree Lar.   I think when we work together,  we become greater than the sum of the parts.  Where we (you and I) appear to differ...  I believe that charity should be voluntary.  You believe it should be enforced.

But charity at gun point is not charity. 

Did you know that conservatives are more charitable than liberals?  Seems counterintuitive, yes?

And yet, study after study confirms that very conundrum.  Why do you suppose that is?

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

"Liberals show tremendous compassion in pushing for generous government spending to help the neediest people at home and abroad. Yet when it comes to individual contributions to charitable causes, liberals are cheapskates."

lar,

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful story.

Tim,

I think that it was inappropriate to bring politics into this, especially since I got the impression, that lar was specifically bringing up something, that seems to be screaming out a profound, non political message...........that regardless of who we are or what party we are from........we must work together.

Unfortunately, what has existed here on the NTR forum for too long are people that we know only as liberals/democrats and conservatives/republicans and we don't see them outside of this.

When you saw the post by lar, your brain told you what political party he was from and it blocked the message he was sending.

One can understand this as so many here define themselves based entirely on their political views.

Some only come here to state extreme political views and partake in divisive political conversations. 

But not everybody. This was a great thread, to lead us AWAY from politics.

But don't be offended lar. Please keep providing us with wonderful videos/stories like this one.

There are people trying to make the world a better place from both parties. I know that you and carl are great role models and examples for democrats anywhere and anytime. The more that you post here, the more respect your positions and sincerity to making the world a better place will be appreciated.

Let me put it another way.

If mcfarm had posted the same video, my guess is that you would not have responded the same way.

Tim New,

Our political affiliation is only a small part of who we are. Defining ourselves primarily by political beliefs is a great divider - especially in current times. Your political beliefs does not make you a good or bad person. Nor does mine. Same with religion, sex or nationality.  

This post was simply an effort to find common community here. Maybe we are too far polarized for that.

.

Mike,  I see the point you are trying to make,  but I don't think a reasonable point/question asked in a civil tone is inappropriate.  Whenever the subject of charity, or charitable acts is raised, regardless of the source, I'll often think of the different ways we view charity, and the differences are largely defined by a liberal vs. conservative view. Let's leave dem/pub out of it. I've known some dems who were more conservative than some pubs. Charity, IMO, should be generous and anonymous whenever possible. We may have to agree to disagree, and since you're the monitor, your vote counts more than mine  :-)

Lar,  I don't think politics defines who we are..  Quite the opposite.  Who we are defines our politics. But a funny thing happened on the way to the podium. When you get right down to it, most of us want the same things. We just have very different views on how to make those things happen.

Tim,

Maybe the word inappropriate was misleading because your point was a good one in most conversations.

However, 

The entire point that lar was trying to make was that we should look past politics to realms such as those presented in this video and spend more time focusing on them.

This is an extraordinarily profound point, thread and video and lar, I'm not going to let you get away with being disappointed at Tim's response.

Instead, we can use it as an example of what most of use have been negatively conditioned to here at MarketForum on the NTR forum. It actually was the reason for the split from the trading forum in 2017............divisive political battles were turning off those who wanted to discuss trading and it was getting worse.

So the NTR topics got their own forum and like the rest of the world, got sucked into the big black hole of divisive politics.  Getting worse and worse. One sided, hate loaded attacks and posters coming there, not to build things up but to tear things down and to make negative contributions.

I have not received a cent for being moderator but have been working hard for free in projects the past 30 years intended to make things better in our world. Teaching scholastic chess to thousands is my big thing. 

It makes no sense at all for me to be moderator of a forum that features a bunch of people with mentalities of wanting to tear things down, be divisive, pick fights with those they disagree with and search the internet to post mindless articles, which can't pass a basic critical thinking test here to accomplish their objective.

So the choice is pretty clear for me as a moderator. I'm not letting those individuals control the forum anymore. 

What is the point of even having an NTR forum if it features posts described above which go against what I believe is my mission in life?

Interesting response yesterday to me announcing some changes. The greatest participants to the tearing down things mentality here and divisive political posts all squawked the loudest. A few of the other ones thanked me for being moderator, including lar earlier in the week(so it wasn't just one political side, it was a MINDSET).

The destructive mindset is no longer going to rule here without me challenging it. Those that fight that, can complain that their right to free speech is being restrained or that Alex would not have done this. 

Of course you would think that way..................this is part of that mindset that keeps you from being able to see the error in your ways vs justifying the behavior with excuses generated in order to avoid having to confront the reality of the behavior. 

That exact behavior is destroying our country right now. You know it, both sides know it. Each side, entirely blames the other side and takes no responsibility. 

That makes it NOT ok here anymore. Please do stick around because I will try to help you to learn a much better way...........which was lar's objective when starting this thread.

lar,

I consider you my assistant with an objective of steering the forum towards threads like this one in the NTR section. JP has forever tried to do this, as well as others, including Carl(who I miss).  I need your assistance because in the absence of it, one side will perceive my objective as being to shut down their opinions about Trump.

Trump opinions are still very welcome here........the manner in which they are presented, like other opinions is what matters the most.

Adding too that I realize that some of you do this, like millions of others, because of conditioning and being encouraged by the media's sensationalistic framing of stories to generate ratings and, unlike somebody like lar, can't embrace the much more rewarding aspect of doing the opposite of this...............working  together to make our world better. 

Since lar and metmike(and others here) DO know the difference, we are obligated to present to those that currently under appreciate the difference, compelling evidence to convince you that our path is much more rewarding. 

Since much of the posting here has focused strongly on the negativity of divisive politics, I assume that traffic will plunge from that category. 

For me, it's a no brainer. Why even have an NTR forum if it exists for people to battle each other with hate in their hearts for the other political side.

Put another way. I might consider doing this for 10,000/month under those conditions. However, for free why would somebody like me put in so much into an effort that is counter productive to my mission in life?

May Peace be with you all.....

"Trump opinions are still very welcome here........the manner in which they are presented, like other opinions is what matters the most."

Suppose you were to ban all mention of or about Trump in NTR posts -- who might you no longer see posts from? If that's all such posters bring to the forum, would they be missed, if they went missing, and if so, why? I would think anyone could get his fill of that sort of thinking by visiting RawStory or the Democratic Underground -- is there a need for posters to just regurgitate links to those sites here? Personally, I think politically obsessed posters do more harm than good in a forum that is trying to encourage intelligent discussion on a variety of NTR topics -- it seems obvious to me that they are working directly against what you are trying to accomplish here.

In fact, isn't it likely that what would be most prized at any forum that is worth its salt is original thinking? How much of that goes into a post that exists solely to draw forumite attention to content at other sites via a tease and a link? 

......   to JP  ......   I cannot let my subscription to the Darwin Theory run empty on some mere lack of evidence.......

      ----....do not wish anybody in "deathpool" though....

Market Forum is one of, if not the oldest internet sites of its type.  It started as part of INO.Com, at a time when a 3 letter web addy was possible. It began shortly after the internet began.  In web terms, it's ancient. 

Alex was a driving force in that longevity...  But as is often the case, the whole became greater than the sum of the parts.   We've become a community, albeit somewhat dysfunctional at least part of the time.

The only consistent rule was an insistence on civility. While the definition of civility is subjective,  most know it when they see it, and incivility is readily apparent and easily defined.

What is far more subjective, nearly impossible to define, is what is relevant and/or acceptable subject matter.  Everyone objects to something.  

If we start making Market Forum a popularity contest,  it will not, IMO, be in the best interest of the forum. It will become the echo chamber that many of us condemn.

Wholeness

WHOLENESS IS MY NATURAL STATE OF BEING.

Whenever I find my thoughts scattered or fragmented, I find refuge within. My heart is already whole, coherent, peaceful, and well. By centering my thoughts and feelings on my established center of wholeness, waves of love and light radiate outward into my mind, my world, and my affairs.

I am already whole! In my heart of hearts, I know this to be true. All that is left for me to do is to center my thoughts and feelings, and the universal love of God does the rest. I am poised, grateful, and uplifted. I am joyous, free, and harmonious! My right outcomes are in perfect order, and I draw my good to me. Wholeness is my natural state of being.

"Personally, I think politically obsessed posters do more harm than good in a forum that is trying to encourage intelligent discussion on a variety of NTR topics -- it seems obvious to me that they are working directly against what you are trying to accomplish here."

JP, you nailed some profound points. How ironic it is for somebody dedicated to making the world a better place the past 30 years(part of a dozen volunteer organizations), would allow for a dynamic on the forum that he moderates to be the polar opposite of everything that he stands for at times................in order to allow everybody to express themselves freely, as long as they didn't attack fellow posters.

In the past month+, I've had to delete or change many posts/threads and warn a couple of posters many times......because their messages and words were unacceptable. 

I apologize to those that have been subjected to this, almost daily because I've been excessively tolerant of views of those that disagree with what makes sense  to an objective, critically thinking mind.

Here's the thing. We can disagree on many things and it still makes for some solid discussions here. However, what I have been excessively tolerant of has been the MANNER in which those views have been expressed. A manner that intentionally increased/promotes divisiveness and hatred. Applied with inflammatory links to articles that often were based on wild speculation and a slaughtering of the truth. 

We have far too much of this in our country right now. 

MetMike, One thing I hope we figure out is based on us not viewing other posters as evil or stupid simply because they have different views - especially political, cultural or religious views. 

Even if elected officials are fair game to support or criticize. We don’t have to agree but we don’t have to be enemies either.

"A manner that intentionally increased/promotes divisiveness and hatred. Applied with inflammatory links to articles that often were based on wild speculation and a slaughtering of the truth. We have far too much of this in our country right now."

Yes we do, and IMO far too much of that in the forum. Of course, I am not demanding that you take any particular course of action, merely arguing my point of view. I think you are to be admired and appreciated for your service here.

"Even if elected officials are fair game to support or criticize. We don’t have to agree but we don’t have to be enemies either."

And this is where civility comes into play.

"MetMike, One thing I hope we figure out is based on us not viewing other posters as evil or stupid simply because they have different views - especially political, cultural or religious views. 

Even if elected officials are fair game to support or criticize. We don’t have to agree but we don’t have to be enemies either."

As always lar, you make profound points. 

I did not cover everything here but this response to mojo may help a bit in defining my position:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/23585/

Every human deserves the utmost respect. The fact is, frequently the ones most shunned and judged in our world are the ones that need the most compassion, love and understanding.

Those that are high achievers that get all the admiration and respect(that they deserve) will do just fine on their own.

 When I volunteered at the Rescue Mission, there was an opportunity to see alot of broken men with messed up lives. Many of them with mental illness. Many in society judge these people because they hold them to standards they have embraced for themselves.

This is where we make a moral mistake. Even if they did some really dumb things or wasted golden opportunities similar to what we took advantage of with the same environment, a great deal of them are who they are because they aren't us. 

Regardless of their place right now in this world,  what they think or how they behave was determined by many different elements which led them to be who they are and who we are.

Cherish who you are for sure but if you feel there is something about you that's superior to somebody(s).......... instead of judging them, generously share what it is about you or how you think or what you know with the person that you feel needs enlightenment.

What we often do is judge and hate them.

Granted, in most realms we aren't going to change their minds...........but instead of judging them for not embracing the same information that you interpret as authentic, try to see why they think the way that they do. If you can't figure it out, then it's you that was unable to figure it out because there WAS/IS a real reason and it defines their reality as much as yours.

Granted, when others act in harmful ways to society, they need to be held fully accountable for their actions based on reasonable laws needed to protect us all.

With this in mind on MarketForum, I don't judge those who let their intense hatred for Trump define them. I truly wish that I could release them  from this. 

However, we can't let this determine the tone of our conversations and discussions here.............and it's not just the Trump haters. As lar and carl know, I have had to correct responses to some of their authentic posts by the other side that views the world thru its own political tunnel and sees posters, first as to what side they represent, then 2nd what it is they have to say. 

Tim New,

Elected officials:

You have been far from civil when it came to Obama or either of the Clintons especially. I would defend your right to be critical (or supportive) of elected officials. It is part of a citizen elected official feedback loop.

I admit I have been very intolerant of Trump - even more so after he took office. 

This distinguishes us from dictatorships where citizens  are imprisoned for speaking badly about those in power. The bloodless orderly transference of power every 4-8-12 years or so sets the USA apart. 

Being civil to fellow posters is a different animal. No matter how nasty we are to one another it does not change things one iota except it makes the forum character nasty. This is supposed to be a community where ideas are shared, not one for character assasination of community members. 

Ignoring posters whose views you can’t tolerate is almost always an option - unless someone follows you around and trolls you. Nobody has to click where they don’t want to.

I certainly have some harsh opinions where Obama and the Clintons are concerned.  Some fact based, some based on supposition, and some speculation, but uncivil?  Certainly no less civil than your opinions/suppositions/speculation re: Trump.  I don't think uncivil is the correct term.

And ya know, where Trump is concerned.. there is a lot about him that I don't like. There are times I have to admit that his actions are indefensible.  I wonder if you can say the same about Obama and the Clintons?

As far as how we interact with fellow posters...  Civility is rule one. I don't know what rule two is.  I have failed on occasion, and I will not justify it.  But I make a serious attempt, even when critical of opinions, thoughts or ideas.

ss,

I always enjoy your flamboyant/entertaining posting.  

There isn't a subject........about anything that would leave you unable to come up with some creative, funny graphic that relates,................even if the exact connection, might be elusive to sane thinking people at times (-:

Luckily, I'm not one of those sane people. 

Tim New,

I have two significant criticisms of Bill Clinton’s administration and one of the Obama administration. I have three dozen of the Trump administration.

Only 2 for the Clintons and 1 for Obama.   Unless that's Bill and Hillary, and Barack Hussein, we have very different perspectives  :-)

The prosecution rests yer honor ...

Don’t know if this thread is the correct place for it  but anyway.

I don’t visit here often so disregard if you wish. Two forums I post on often and enjoy do not allow any politics or religion. Period. End of.

I realize some consider it a sport, and it would be akin to not  watching their favorite team play on Sunday but I don’t enjoy bickering. I see no point in it. But then I also see little point in going nuts over some group of millionaires playing a game.

If there is a turn to civility I would endorse it. However, in all honesty such a turn does seem a little disingenuous, maybe even hypocritical. For years sophomoric name calling was the norm. The play on words for Obama, Hillary and Michel were rampant. Now we have a different ox being gored and it becomes unseemly.

Now, if it is a situation where we acknowledge the past as childish and at some point the tide needs to turn, fine, I’ll accept that. Maybe we need something  similar to the #me-too movement.

This deal with being all offended doesn’t apply here. No one here is able to offend me I assure you. I taught school 32 years, I have pretty tough skin. In order to be offended a person has to care, I don’t.

My marketing knowledge is very limited, mostly from disuse. After all, I have portions of two years crops unsold, three if you consider 2019.

Carry on.

I appreciate your valued opinion mcfarmer.

We are in the process of working things out here. 

At first, we allowed almost anything as long as fellow posters did not attack other posters. However, many links and articles with wild speculative attacks and name calling of Trump, was clearly offensive to Trump supporters as well as being repugnant to objective people who came here for intelligent discourse.

Most recently, I figured we could keep the politics in under many scenarios, including one that featured objective empirical evidence to support a position. 

Last night, I provided an example of using irrefutable evidence from the Stone arrest..............a video showing the FBI setting CNN up with a position to shoot  video of the Stone arrest in order to provide the FBI with the right coverage and narrative on CNN. 

Nobody else was allowed on the street which was blocked off. Neighbors had to go into their houses but somehow, one side thinks that CNN being right there with the FBI, captured on video(which we knew already) is not evidence of anything.

I worked in television news for 11 years and am viewing this from an enlightened standpoint of protocol between cops and media and of course, the reality of the video..

However, one side has decided to see something completely different than what the video shows. It's like when people tell me that the planet is dying from the increase i in CO2 and I show them actual satellite studies/pictures that prove the planet is greening up and that the polar bear population has been increasing from the latest experts and that we've been having the best weather and climate in the past 1,000 years for life. I am an atmospheric scientist studying this for 2 decades, so I have all the data that matters..........the response is to send me an article from 10 years ago from 1 source stating that polar bears in one location had decreased. 

Minds have been made up. I get that with religion(its called faith for a reason) and politics. However,  minds made up to reject science, empirical data and authentic facts is something which is most concerning.

I prefer(especially as a scientist) to learn more and understand  even better the true extent of today's cognitively biased society vs being frustrated by it and banning too many things here because it's just one sides cognitive bias vs the other sides bias and authentic facts/truth doesn't matter.

Even truths have been twisted to be "subjective" truths. However, as an independent, open minded moderator and objective scientist trying my best to make the world a better place, applying compassion and tolerance not judgement, I see some truth's as being THE truth. When those TRUTH'S are provable in the eyes of an objective observer...........and sometimes they don't line up with one sides view, sometimes they do, they should not be forced to hide. 

If they lead to divisive discourse here, then we can go on to another subject. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

Tim New,

Clinton’s 2

Militarization of the police 

Privatization of the prison system

Obama’s 1

Not eliminating Marijuana’s schedule status

Trump’s Dozens

Mojo has said many of them. I expect the legal systems and electorate systems to make this right but in the meantime I intend to say what’s on my mind about any elected official including the current POTUS.

Tim, It’s clear you and I don’t agree. Your life experiences are dramatically different than mine so it’s no surprise that your priorities are different. Even though you and I may never be friends, we don’t have to be enemies. There is a rare few here who are unable to see me as anything else. I’m fine with healthy boundaries in that case.

Mostly I see this as a community of people who have commonality in wanting to interact with the markets well. I first came here from a trading forum where they bickered (TFC) all the fricking time. INO was a breath of fresh air. Even as bad as things get here it has never been as nasty as TFC was late 90s.

I do miss those excellent, helpful and informative INO days. 

"Even though you and I may never be friends, we don’t have to be enemies."

I disagree with lots of people I consider to be friends.  Most, some of the time,  some, most of the time.

And here's another area where we may disagree.  I already consider you to be an "online" or virtual friend, and I suspect there's a good chance we'd be friends IRL. The list of people on the forum that I feel unlikely candidates is very short. Surprisingly short. The list got significantly shorter with the banning of Vandy.    

lar,

I am just glad that you're here sharing who you are. 

I realize that "birds of a feather flock together" and there are some different kind of birds here than you are.  

I hope carl is ok and can return soon because you and carl are the same kind of bird. I will also say that although we disagree with some political issues(including the politics of climate science, which is not science) you and me line up extraordinarily well on issues that count. 

Those that make us human and contribute towards unifying on issues that make our world better, while we take paths that maximize opportunities to agree and minimize those that disagree.

As a scientist, my views are often focused on data and authentic facts. I probably come off, at times as arrogant or a know it all or biased in some realms................climate science for instance.

I apologize for giving that impression but for me, the scientific method, which includes looking at all opposing data and opinions too, to consider them as possibilities, is what rules my brain when it comes to realms which can be proven or disproven.

However, the human condition is more than just a bunch of facts which tell you what you need to know. Love, compassion, understanding, cooperation, humility, tolerance, patience and so on are emotions and behavior/personality traits that are independent of science. This is the area, which often defines thinking and leads people to grow together or apart.

And many people were gifted with an abundance of blessings in the behavior traits category. This can't be overestimated.

Those are the people who should be obligated to share their gifts. The financially richest and career wise most successful people are not always the same as those with the traits listed above. 

Those with the altruistic traits above, like you lar should, hopefully be willing to share, not just the actions that result in positive things happening in the world but their way of thinking..........so that others can appreciate that same way of thinking and want to be part of that world.

Which is how this thread started out, with your initial video and the point of this long winded post.

This has been a good discussion but the starting point should not be lost. And this is where you can enrich all of our lives here lar.  Bring more of this to our forum please!

JP,

Well said John. How have you been man?

Hey Lar -- good to hear from you. Mike is working hard to make the "new" MarketForum a success, and people like you can only help. I'm doing alright -- my dad always answered that query in a way that seems apropos now: "Fair to middling." 

jp,

Thanks. I hope that you, lar and others continue to make wonderful positive contributions.