Thanks much pj!
So I assume that this is bad now.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/40666/
Here were some of my related comments/opinions last week:
Re: Re: Re: Turkish Troops Cross Border
By metmike - Oct. 9, 2019, 11:19 a.m.
So you agree that most of our affairs over there have been debacles but on THIS ONE, we have the justification to continue military intervention.
I say, you and me:
1. Are not given the accurate assessment of what's going on because we are constantly fed propaganda, especially in the Middle East to support whatever actions the gatekeepers want to take. Can you say Iraq War. They can't even give us the right information about 1 phone call to Ukraine for Pete's sake(they lied about when they got the complaint and make up a story about what was said as part of the propaganda...........and we have the documentation to verify that-you think they will tell the Truth in the Middle East?)
2. Are aware of almost every single military intervention failing miserably for 6 decades.
3. Are aware of war in the Middle East being a way of life for people over there. We are not ever going to convert them to our belief system and be able to control them, other than temporary situations where we have to kill the bad guys, while getting(what you think is reasonable this time) some of our good guys killed.
4. Don't have any personal "skin in the game" . Easy for us to decide its ok for somebody else's loved ones die for what we think is a just cause.
5. The US is not the only country in the world. We are on the other side of the planet. I am for assisting other countries with humanitarian aid to save lives. We have more than we need and can afford to be more generous in this venue........but that doesn't apply to the lives of our brave soldiers or money/resources to kill people for political strategies. I am not for the US leading the way in venues like this.
6. This is part of the agenda that Trump ran on in 2016. .....pulling out of the Middle East. He is doing exactly as he promised(thank God). The republicans really don't like this particular move by Trump but this is one area that he has been consistently anti Republican on and the voters picked him over somebody like Ted Cruz and Hillary Clinton because of agenda like this.
I am not sure what level of pulling out is appropriate because none of us is privy to the specific dynamics(and neither is the MSM) but for me, the LESS presence we have over there the better.
I am not saying NO intervention or actions or military assistance. Just raise the bar much higher for standards in which we get involved.
"So I assume that this is bad now."
I assume you would think it's bad.
I assume that you would assume that I would assume that this is bad (-:
So is this bad pj?
Depends on how fast ISIS resurrects itself.
New abbreviation: MIGA (Make ISIS Great Again).
ISIS? You mean that JV team? <G>
I've heard a few of these "ISIS" arguments. None have much merit.
May I hear yours?
Thank pj!
I don't believe that any information that we get from that region is reliable.
It's almost always been propoganda from sources that want to justify military and other types of intervention.
We've been over there for something like 70 years with many dozens of operations.
Trillions of dollars, thousands of our soldiers killed, tens of thousands messed up or injured, hundreds of thousands of their people messed up or injured.
Give me a list of all the successes during that time frame that made it worth it.
We apparently defeated ISIS and killed Bin Laden (which was not a military intervention).
Again, I'm not saying we should not be there at all or ever again because there are probably some legit reasons but legit reasons might be 20% of the reasons that we get and how can we tell the difference about whether it’s legit or another 80-90% bs reason?
I sure can't. How about you?
To say our efforts in the mid east have been a profound waste is a gross understatement.
But what really perplexes me is the significance being placed on the withdrawal of a 1,000 soldiers.
".....But what really perplexes me is the significance being placed on the withdrawal of a 1,000 soldiers......"
especially, when considering that the Kurdish militia is 150,000 strong.
Tim, you don't think that releasing a bunch of captured and angry ISIS fighters has the potential of causing major problems in the future?
As I've stated several times I was against the Iraq War from before Bush launched it. But the way it worked out it seemed a mistake to withdraw the last of the troops and leave Iraq in such an unstable a condition and so vulnerable, except for the Kurdish region... with the Kurds seemingly the only group that appreciated the US intervention and consistently cooperated with us. I can't say I envisioned the rise of ISIS to the extent it did, but look how much it cost us to to deal with it.
Now it seems equally, if more so, shortsighted (aka stupid) pulling the troops opening the door for the Kurds to get in the neck and leaving a vacuum for the Russians, Iran, Al Qeada or once again ISIS to fill . Plus it seems very damaging to the relationship with any allies we have or may have... their trusting us.
And the argument that it was done to "bring the troops home" seems totally lame given that the troops immediately being moved to Iraq and more troops are being sent to Saudi Arabia, not to mention the tens of thousands of troops we continue to have in dozens of countries around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments
under ordinary circumstances pj might have a point, but good Lord this is the middle east. how you could possibly predict which damn muslim group would do what to whom and for what silly ass reason.
Note the dates of this articles. This issue has been around for quite awhile.
By Devan Cole, CNN
Updated 10:40 AM ET, Sun December 23, 2018
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/23/politics/rand-paul-syria-withdraw-cnntv/index.html
By Rand Paul
Updated 12:03 AM ET, Tue April 17, 2018
https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/17/opinions/trump-should-trust-his-gut-on-syria-opinion-paul/index.html
"Mr. President, trust your gut. Go with what you know to be true. The Afghanistan war should be over; our troops should leave. The Syrian civil war never should have been our fight. Let's end our involvement.
We can and must fight against terrorism when it rears its ugly head. We can do that in a smarter, constitutional way, and President Trump can lead our country in a new direction, as he seems to want to do. But he'll have to stop listening to the people who caused so many problems and so much death and destruction over the past 17 years if he wants to make his goals reality."
Republican Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul argued Wednesday that pulling the remaining U.S. troops from northern Syria “may be the best thing that ever happened to the Kurds.”
Paul’s comments came during a Wednesday interview on CNN’s “The Lead with Jake Tapper” as Vice President Mike Pence travels to Turkey to meet with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to discuss a potential ceasefire to the country’s offensive against U.S.-allied Kurdish fighters.
“This was [President Donald Trump’s] decision. … It was the best thing not only for our troops, but it’s also the best way to adhere to the Constitution,” Paul said. “The Constitution says you don’t declare a war unless Congress votes on it, and who are we going to declare a war against — our ally, Turkey, the Free Syrian Army that used to be our ally, [Syrian President Bashar] Assad?”
“He was told by the Turks they were coming one way or another, and they had 50 troops. Fifty troops don’t stop 10,000 troops. … I think he made the right decision. I’m reminded of Beirut [Lebanon] when we made the wrong decision and had 300 Marines in a barracks that weren’t well protected. … So I think he made the right decision,” the Kentucky senator added.
Paul said Trump’s decision may end up being good for U.S.-allied Turkish fighters in the long run.
“This may be the best thing that ever happened to the Kurds, because they need a protector in Syria willing to stay,” he said. “We had been preventing having them talk to Assad. Now they’ve made an alliance with Assad, and the irony of this is: It may end up being the best thing that ever happened to them.”metmike: Rand Paul is the only one that I almost trust for information of this topic.
One lone opinion vs almost universal disapproval from everyone else including from the troops that fought there.
And why in the world hand Erdogon such a big favor, when he's taken a once successfully developing western-leaning secular country more and more toward a repressive Islamic state?.
This is true pj.
I'm just telling you that Rand Paul is about the only source that I almost trust to speak the truth on the Middle East.
And then there's the history of us almost always being told whatever we need to hear to justify military actions/interference and more often than not, it wasn't the truth and almost always, it paid few dividends and was very costly.
Call me an extreme skeptic this time.
This has zero to do with Trump for me. As mentioned many times, I voted Obama in 2008 because of being never, warmonger McCain.
As a libertarian, you can especially appreciate that. Are you still a libertarian?
"Are u still a libertarian."
On a number of things, but not when it comes to the US completely sticking its head in the ground no matter what, though I agree the US has mostly "helped" make the mess in the mid-east, particularly when Bush invaded Iraq.