mm: I know you think "the science is settled", but... ;-)
Fauci says it's not effective.
"The overwhelming, prevailing clinical trials that have looked at the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine have indicated that it is not effective in coronavirus disease," Fauci told ABC News Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos on "Good Morning America," just hours after the president's retweet Monday night."
Clearly jealous of Fauci's popularity Trump says:
"He's got this high approval rating, so why don't I have a high approval rating with respect -- and the administration -- with respect to the virus?"
"It sort of is curious a man works for us -- with us -- very closely, Dr. Fauci -- and Dr. (Deborah) Birx, also highly thought of -- and yet they're highly thought of, but nobody likes me."
Re: one of the group of docs supporting Trump's position on HCQ and touted by him and Don Jr. is Dr. Stella Immanuel. Along with strong belief in HCQ, she says "you don't need a mask" and claims:
"...medical issues like endometriosis, cysts, infertility, and impotence are caused by sex with “spirit husbands” and “spirit wives”—a phenomenon Immanuel describes essentially as witches and demons having sex with people in a dreamworld."
"mm: I know you think "the science is settled", but... ;-) "
Actually pj,
Our first discussion on this topic featured YOU thinking the science was settled and me promoting being open minded and that until we have more data on COVID to allow new information to form the opinion........the scientific method............not the other way around. Not have the opinion, then cherry pick biased studies and use only those.
I actually spent numerous hours researching since that discussion.
Here's a reminder of that conversation.:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/53061/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Fauci says it's not effective.
"The overwhelming, prevailing clinical trials that have looked at the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine have indicated that it is not effective in coronavirus disease," Fauci told ABC News Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos on "Good Morning America," just hours after the president's retweet Monday night."
You know how much I respect Fauci but he is wrong about this. He can use clinical trials(many of which DO show no efficacy) to form his entire opinion but this is a mistake on his part. He knows at least 100 times more than me about this field and 500 times more than Trump but he does not know more than many thousands of doctors that are using it because of positive results. I will take thousands of real medical doctors with real patients lives on the line over clinical studies that Fauci is tethered to. These doctors are not all being blinded by the clown or Trump supporters, they practice life saving medicine for a living. Fauci uses clinical trials to form his opinions. They are misleading him this time. Also, in understanding the mechanism of how the drug works.........it's totally consistent with exactly why many thousands of doctors are still prescribing it.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Clearly jealous of Fauci's popularity Trump says:"
You define everything with regards to what Trump says and think that I do the same. I give anything that Trump says exactly ZERO weighting. In fact, I automatically don't believe anything that anybody says on issues like this until I have the science and data in front of me.
Nothing new that Trump is lacking in tact when communicating on issues about people that he disagrees with. You and I agree on this for the...........20th time?
+++++++++++++++++++++
Re: one of the group of docs supporting Trump's position on HCQ and touted by him and Don Jr. is Dr. Stella Immanuel. Along with strong belief in HCQ, she says "you don't need a mask" and claims:
"...medical issues like endometriosis, cysts, infertility, and impotence are caused by sex with “spirit husbands” and “spirit wives”—a phenomenon Immanuel describes essentially as witches and demons having sex with people in a dreamworld."
Seriously???
Is this supposed to be evidence that hydroxychloroquine doesn't work or maybe, it is trying to connect a whacko with Trump?
I'll repeat my evidence again, below for you.
The date of this was just yesterday.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/56799/
Re: Re: Re: Re: George Will to vote for Biden: thank you
By metmike - July 26, 2020, 5:18 p.m.
Thanks pj,
We've been down this road before.
Previously, it was about whether my being open minded about HCQ was justified because of the studies that came out like this one you provided a link to. One of them even claimed to have stopped the study because it was killing so many patients.
Sounded pretty bad and convincing alright but I remained steadfast at keeping and open mind(with zero consideration of what the clown had stated).........and I did my own research and found out why thousands of doctors continue to use it. They understand medicine and their priority is to save lives. This drug, with 100% certainty reduces inflammation(including in the lungs) which is a benefit to COVID patients. Its how it works..........and why its been used effectively for Lupus and other forms of arthritis to treat the inflammation.
Its also been taken by hundreds of millions of people for several decades(mainly for Malaria) with very few, if any side affects.
A couple of studies that suddenly contradict the REALITY are very suspect in my opinion. The reality always wins.
From your study:
"Our trial has several limitations. First, although the point estimate of effect suggests no major difference between the groups with respect to the primary outcome, the trial cannot definitively rule out either a substantial benefit of the trial drugs or a substantial harm. For the comparison between hydroxychloroquine and control, for example, our data are compatible with odds ratios as low as 0.69 and as high as 2.11. Second, the trial was not blinded. Third, despite intense efforts to maintain adherence to the assigned treatments, a lack of medications that were perceived as beneficial by clinicians and patients led to some protocol deviations. Fourth, the use of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin was widespread among patients hospitalized with Covid-19 in participating hospitals. The enrollment of patients with no previous use of these medications was challenging, so we decided to enroll patients provided that their previous use since the onset of symptoms was limited to 24 hours."
metmike: In politically charged areas like this, especially climate science, I prefer to do my own research rather than to just believe what others show, especially if its presented as mainstream science that we all need to adhere to and not question.......that relates to an extremely politicized topic.
This is what I actually found and why doctors that understand it are widely using it:
https://arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13075-019-2040-6
SAA stimulation induced significant production of IL-1β in human neutrophils. SAA stimulation also induced NF-κB activation, pro-IL-1β mRNA expression, and NLRP3 protein expression in human neutrophils. HCQ pretreatment significantly inhibited the SAA-induced IL-1β production in human neutrophils, but did not affect the SAA-induced NF-κB activation, pro-IL-1β mRNA expression, and NLRP3 protein expression. Furthermore, SAA stimulation induced cleaved caspase-1 (p20) secretion from human neutrophils, and this release was suppressed by HCQ pretreatment.
Treatment with HCQ was associated with impaired production of IL-1β in SAA-stimulated human neutrophils without affecting the priming process of the NLRP3 inflammasome such as pro-IL-1β or NLRP3 induction. These findings suggest that HCQ affects the NLRP3 activation process, resulting in the impaired IL-1β production in human neutrophils, as representative innate immune cells.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
metmike: Instead of this medical benefit/knowledge being passed on, we get bogus studies like this one that came out earlier this year:
The hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) efficacy issue has generated a lot of debate globally as well. The Lancet study is now under severe criticism from more than 180 scientists worldwide for not releasing the data for an independent analysis outside.
The scientific community is furious seeing a poorly written and poorly executed study published in The Lancet that has not only received huge underserved publicity but also created a massive negative impact on the other judiciously planned clinical trials being conducted around the world. More than 100 scientists and clinicians have sent an open letter to The Lancet's editor, Richard Horton, and the paper's authors asking them many uncomfortable questions, but have failed to receive convincing answers from the authors.
The letter alleges that
Meanwhile, Professor Harvey Risch, MD, Epidemiologist from Yale University has recommended an early therapy with Hydroxychloroquine & Azithromycin in the early therapy for COVID-19. His study Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk Covid-19 Patients that Should be Ramped-Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis has been published by Oxford University Press, on behalf of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
metmike: And the inconvenient result of this study below ignored by those that don't want to believe.
"The anti-malaria drug that President Trump touted as a possible treatment for coronavirus, hydroxychloroquine, successfully lowered the death rate among hospitalized COVID-19 patients in the most recent study of the drug.
The large-scale analysis, conducted by Henry Ford Health System, was published Thursday in the peer-reviewed International Journal of Infectious Diseases.
The study examined 2,541 patients who had been hospitalized in six hospitals between March 10 and May 2, 2020.
More than twenty-six percent (26.4%) of patients who did not receive hydroxychloroquine died.
But among those who received hydroxychloroquine, fewer than half that number — 13% — died.
More than 90% of the patients received hydroxychloroquine within 48 hours of admission to the hospital. Scientists say giving the drug early during illness may be a key to success.
The study’s authors also found one concern flagged in previous reports about hydroxychloroquine did not materialize: heart-related adverse events.
"The data here is clear that there was benefit to using [hydroxychloroquine] as a treatment for sick, hospitalized patients," said Dr. Steven Kalkanis of Henry Ford Health System.
The study scientists point out that other reports about hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for coronavirus that had less positive, mixed, or negative results studied different populations; administered hydroxychloroquine later during illness; used different doses, and/or were not peer-reviewed.
President Trump was widely criticized in the media for saying that if hydroxychloroquine proves to work in treating coronavirus, it could be a game changer.
In May, he told reporters that he, himself, took a course of the drug as a preventive measure after several White House officials were diaagnosed with Covid-19. Trump says he suffered no ill effects from hydroxychloroquine.
Henry Ford Health System is also studying 3,000 healthcare and frontline workers to see if hydroxychloroquine can prevent coronavirus. That study is titled: "Will Hydroxychloroquine Impede or Prevent COVID-19" or "WHIP COVID-19."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
metmike: And anybody can just cherry pick whatever study they want to support their position...........which is NOT what I'm doing. I'm not saying believe the last study at all because it shows what I want you to believe...........I didn't believe it and am skeptical of the results because they also used steroids on some patients that would have affected/helped them and altered the results.
I am
1. Showing you there is a huge group of REAL doctors using it still today on REAL patients and there are studies that support its use, like this last one.
2. But for me, in doing the homework in researching how the drug actually works to effectively diminish inflammation and knowing that hundreds of millions have been taking it safely for decades, tells me exactly why so many real experts........the medical doctors in touch with medicine that are trying to save their patients lives and don't give a darn about politics.......are prescribing it.....not because they are blinded by the clown (-:
3. When it comes to research and papers, most people would be shocked to know how much bias, politics and financial considerations can completely determine outcomes.
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
By metmike - July 26, 2020, 7:49 p.m.
Hydroxychloroquine-based COVID-19 Treatment, A Systematic Review of Clinical Evidence and Expert Opinion from Physicians’ Surveys
Only a small fraction of physicians use plasma, but they highly rate it.
Doctors’ wide-spread use and high recognition of HCQ+AZ treatment against COVID-19 is strong evidence, and, possibly, conclusive proof of the treatment’s safety and effectiveness.
OMG, why do folks, especially intelligent and informed folks, still support this clown of a President? That’s a rhetorical question because I know tribalism is unfortunately in this case a very powerful force.
I really feel like we’re in another dimension, the Twilight Zone. I keep hoping I’m going to wake up soon and be able to tell others about this very weird dream in which the world is turned upside down with Donald Trump as POTUS with even some smart folks supporting him, the worst pandemic of my lifetime causing me to cut my own hair for the first time ever out of fear of going to a barbershop, and for the first time ever seeing and being bitten by bedbugs that came out of nowhere. And to top that off, the bedbugs have since disappeared, which practically never happens without an exterminator.
mm: you keep quoting the same stuff, but as I won't convince you, you won't convince me.
If your position is correct, why did the NIH stop its clinical trials? Why did the FDA revoke it's authorization for use? Why does Fauci continue to say it's "not effective". Because they want to make Trump look bad?
If it's effective, why are we still having over 1000 deaths a day?
And, I can't help but wonder if your position would still be the same, if Trump had come out against using it and his detractors were all for it.
"OMG, why do folks, especially intelligent and informed folks, still support this clown of a President? That’s a rhetorical question because I know tribalism is unfortunately in this case a very powerful force."
Since I was the only one to respond to pj, I assume that this comment is directed at me Larry.
I've asked you to please not mischaracterize me in order to create a fake position so that you can attack it.
Tribalism is the complete opposite of me. My favorite posts here are those that disagree with me. I constantly encourage them. When Gunter or mcfarm or Tim say something that I think is wrong, like recently about Fauci, I will let them know how strongly I disagree with them.
In the last month, the thing that I probably commented most about related to Trump is how dumb his rally in OK was. Dumbest decision in his life and by any president......in my opinion but I based it on facts/science, not my feelings about Trump(who I have described as despicable on numerous occasions because of his character flaws and my dream would be a President Pence).
In this thread, I still have not listened to what Trump said today but was responding to pj who directed his post to me about HCQ.
You suggested that I was supporting Trump.
No I was not because I don't even know what he said, other than what pj posted. I will be listening after this post.
The entire post was defending my position on HCQ(again after pj attacked it because its Trumps position) based on the science/facts and like I keep telling you guys(who continue to not believe me). Trump gets 0 weighting. Not even 1%. Not even .00001%. Exactly 0 weighting when he says something about science or medicine. I am more inclined to NOT believe it initially. And only believe it after doing my own homework to research it.
With regards to supporting Trump. In the last few months, I have contemplated not voting for him. I've given you many, many reasons here why (I find Trump a horrible leader)........but you ignore those.
I think that there will be more peace in the country if those disrupting it, have their way and obliterate Trump.
Then, I realize that this is like terrorism! People, like me not being allowed to express their political views or they get attacked by the other side...........like you are doing. And for just having a scientific position based on this scientists objective and independent analysis of the science..........that just happens to be the same as Trumps. NOT ALLOWED!
It goes beyond that too. Even somebody that constantly points out Trumps flaws, many dozens of times still does not meet the expectations of the never Trumpers.
We must also HATE president Trump like they do and can never see a positive thing that he did or agree with anything that he said. Not even once.
This is a clear display of blatant intolerance and allowing hate to blind that person.
All views are very welcome here, especially those that disagree with mine.
Making personal attacks on others because they have views different than yours is also tolerated here, as long as they are not offensive(your post is not even in the vicinity of offensive-but its almost impossible to offend me).
Because I DO tolerate ALL views here, especially those that disagree with me(which is why I gave Dave over 10 chances to stop making offensive posts).
We are living in the best time in human history and should all be appreciating and enjoying the incredible blessings.........together. Generously sharing information, learning from each other........socializing, nurturing friendships.
Using love to guide us.
Instead of letting hate eat us up and turning on others because they don't hate too.
pj,
You absurdly continue to state that trump has some sort of spell over me.
When you attack me on my scientific position, regarding HCQ and I show conclusive medical proof for the safety and explain how it actually works and why thousands of doctors prescribe it you refuse to believe that too.....because trump is for it.
All I can do is show you science.
To repeat my previous position on HCQ to go with the above. It clearly helps And has helped some patients but is not a cure. It has been conclusively shown to be safe.
You did mention that you thought my climate change position was causing a trump bias in me too previously.
On my climate page, with 36 discussions/ threads and many hundreds of posts about science and the politics of climate change, please find something that ties it to supporting trump.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/27864/
See my post earlier to Larry about being intolerant of others views.
It’s one thing to disagree but it’s not right to mischaracterize somebody’s position so that you can use that manufactured position to attack.
yes HCQ is cheap and plentiful and it works. Of course zinc is critical and the combination of adding the z-pak makes the debate useless. Yes it will have problems with aging patient with other health problems or for that matter the people who die in motorcycle accidents that are included in covid deaths daily that skcew the numbers.
I just watched the video for the first time.
Did you guys actually listen to it???
The CNN reporter tells him, with his baited question what he wants everybody to think, that Trump is bashing Fauci and Trump does the complete opposite. Listen to the man's actual words............not the fake interpretation/narrative that the MSM want you to think:
Trump: No not at all(about thinking that Fauci misled the country)
Trump: I have a very good relationship with Dr. Fauci
Trump: We've listened to Dr. Fauci. I haven't always agreed with him but that pretty standard, thats OK.
Trump: Talks about his ban on China that Fauci gave him credit for in a positive way
Trump: But I get along with him very well and I agree alot with what he said.
Trump: It's interesting, he's got a very high approval rating and I like that, its good. Because remember, he's working for this administration. He's working with us. We could have gotten other people. We could have gotten somebody else, it didn't have to be Dr. Fauci, he's working with the administration and for the most part, we've done what he and others, Dr. Birx and others have recommended and he's got this high approval rating. So why don't I have a high approval rating and the administration with respect to the virus? We should have a very high (approval rating) because of what we've done.
Trump: So its sort of curious, a man works with us, for us very closely, Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx, they're very highly thought of
Trump: and yet they're highly thought of yet nobody likes me (then, with a smile on his face) It can only be my personality, that's all!
Listen to the exact words for yourself at pj's link:
metmike: Last night, I addressed only the science.
Now that I had the chance to listen to the exact words(vs others telling me what they want me to think that his words meant). I can't see how this is supposed to be evidence of a conflict with Fauci and absurdly, criticizing Fauci. For Pete's sake, he compliments Fauci and Birx numerous times and mentions his great relationship with Fauci and that he listens to Dr. Fauci. He agrees alot with what Dr. Fauci says.
It's the 100%, polar opposite of how its being dishonestly portrayed.
Then, at the end he makes a funny joke about the reality of why it is that his approval doesn't match theirs........ .and you know that its true.
Anybody using this to try to manufacture a rift or claim its Trump bashing Fauci is totally delusional with TDS.
Yes, for once in a blue moon, I am actually defending Trumps exact words at a press conference. I only remember 2 other times, in 3 years when I did that.
Look out....MM is surely but soundly starting to see he has no choice but vote for Trump....Again. He has decided again he does not like the man but knows what the man has done in 3 1/2 years with little support, a rigged investigation and impeachment has been remarkable. {almost forgot the virus}
The competition is not there so if MM is coming around I trust many of the silent majority {even to afraid of the rioters to put signs in their yard} will come around. Maybe TRump needs a chief anti environmental crises and meteorologist on staff and we could recommend MM. Before you know they would be hanging out together.
mcfarm,
This is without a doubt based entirely on politics. REAL science does not matter. Even if HCQ did not end up working, there is massive evidence right now that it DOES work and the scientific method, by definition compels all scientists to ignore politics and use science to prove they are right. Here's how we do it............ We try our darndest to prove that our own theory is wrong. If we or others can't PROVE it wrong............then and only then do they know that we have it right.
The video taken down yesterday was powerful evidence that the other side has it wrong. It had to go.
All you need to prove that those who say HCQ does not work.............are results of real people getting better because of it. Actual medical doctors on the front lines will be the first to know this. It's already been proven safe from hundreds of millions taking it over the last several decades with no significant side effects.
I am looking closely at ALL information, including the Fauci sited studies that say it doesn't work. This does NOT disprove the results of thousands of real doctors in the business of saving REAL lives And it actually makes no sense based on the known mechanism by which the drug works.......those who understand medicine would expect positive results applying medicine.
I'm not a medical doctor but am a scientist that is looking at this from only that vantage point. Screw the politics. The gatekeepers are trying to impose their political belief system on us right now and it includes controlling the messages, including censuring videos that contradict the narratives.
Covering up the spread of COVID thru protesting is so much worse than anything Trump has done...........by several orders of magnitude.
This is the most important issue of our lives and we are supposedly trying to gather every iota of information to understand and manage it...............oh, except for one thing..........the protesting that's profoundly spreading it in many areas.
When I get the chance later today or tomorrow, I'll show you the irrefutable proof(again) for why the protests are significantly increasing the amount of COVID in areas with heavy protesting.
But for Pete's sake, how is it that Dr. Birx is telling people not to congregate in groups of greater than 10, even outdoors and wearing masks and with good reason yet we are constantly being told there is no evidence of groups 100 times bigger than that, some NOT wearing masks and shouting are not spreading COVID.
The data is nice but to understand that COVID is being spread at protests doesn't take data, it just takes an engaged, objectively thinking brain.
No wonder people are finding it harder and harder to believe things they read and hear.
This is the most important issue of our lifetime and they are getting it completely wrong for blatantly obvious and intentional, political reasons.
This message just can't be repeated too often:
I'll repeat this again:
By metmike - July 15, 2020, 2:26 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/50115/
Hate is the most destructive emotion of all.
"It will cause you to lower and violate the previous standards that you set for yourself for ethical behavior and honestly because this emotion drives you to hurt the person that you hate more than those previous standards cause you to follow the truth and be objective...............and act professionally, with integrity.
It will cause you to do and say things that are harmful to you and your reputation when the hate becomes neurotic because you become so obsessed with harming the hated person that rational thinking no longer applies.
Your interpretation of circumstances involving the hated person becomes so blatantly skewed that the hoped for endpoint in every realm is always for them to be hurt.
Hate blackens the heart and soul of the hater. It can ruin personal relationships and ironically, more often than not destroys the hater, not the target of their hatred.
This emotion drives the thoughts of many people when it comes to any issue involving President Trump."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
mm: "You absurdly continue to state that trump has some sort of spell over me."
I don't think that but when you supported his suggesting of injecting disinfectant, I really began to wonder.
And have to say with your constantly pointing out how unfair everyone is to Trump, you do seem much more amenable to positions that support him, more likely to attack positions that oppose him.
"The letter initially stated families should isolate any students who participated in the ceremony, but Stremmel said the advisory applied to anyone who was present at the event, which took place outdoors on Bayside High's football field.
"We are advising anyone who attended the graduation ceremony to self-quarantine and monitor their symptoms for 14 days," she said.
The school district had previously announced safety measures for all high school graduations to reduce the risk of spreading the virus, including mandatory masks and spaced seating to promote social distancing. Physical contact between students and staff and all indoor activities were prohibited."
metmike: So they continue with widespread contact tracing around the country, after identifying individuals and what activities they were involved in so that those that may have been close enough to them to be exposed, can be advised to self-quarantine.
Millions of people testing positive in the last 2 months that were part of many thousands of activities, similar to this one(but mostly much smaller #'s) where they tried to use the data to reign in the spread.
But the activity that the most amount of people participated in large groups together in was protesting. Literally millions. Unlike this event in Florida, protesters did NOT practice social distancing.......and some people at protests di NOT wear masks.
So out of the millions of people testing positive for COVID(with young adults and black numbers soaring higher) and the millions of people at protests, how many news stories have we heard about people testing positive, then contact tracing indicating they were recently at a protest with COVID?
I can't find even 1 story. I can find some stories that say there is no evidence that protesting is spreading COVID and that the data is not there but how can this be if we have massive, massive DETAILED contact tracing data about everything else with many of these people but the activity that featured way more people than any other activity..........NOTHING. No data.
Because its absolutely intentional:
Dr. S. Patrick Kachur, a professor at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health, defended the city’s position about leaving demonstrations out of tracing questions.
“Asking about protests might alienate some people — and it might not generate that much useful information.
“What would you do if knew someone was standing out in the Barclay’s Center for hours? Would you ask literally everybody to come in? So, they took some reasonable steps – trying to ascertain this information could compromise our ability to establish the trust that we need,” Kachur explained.
But a former associate commissioner for the federal Food and Drug Administration slammed the approach.
“When President Trump says if we stop testing we’ll have fewer cases, the Mayor calls out the hypocrisy,” Peter Pitts said.
“When we can’t explain the uptick in our fair city’s COVID-19 infection rates among the 20-29 age group — and we aren’t asking if they’ve attended a Black Lives Matter protest, that’s called hypocrisy too. Wake up, Your honor. Closing your eyes and covering your ears won’t change the facts,” Pitts said.
Dr. Jake Deutsch, co-founder of Cure Urgent Care that’s tested over 5,000 patients for COVID-19, agreed that the tracing corps should ask about protests.
“The purpose of contact tracing is you’re trying to identify sources of where the infections are occurring, so I think you ask about gatherings whether it’s bars, protests, schools, churches. The question shouldn’t just stop with, ‘Were you in a restaurant?’ You’d have to be much inclusive. And trying to predict that [bars are] the source of the problem I think that’s a pretty impossible presumption given the fact that it’s a highly contagious virus,” Deutsch said."
metmike: And we continue to be told there is no evidence or lack of data to tell us whether COVID is being spread at protests...........and the study above, by design will tell us everywhere that COVID came from........except for protests.
1d ·
This has been under some of the posts about the FrontLine doctor controversy but I want to be sure anyone interested in the topic sees this. It's the treatment I would want.
A doctor/lawyer friend (Barbara Golder) posted this info from another doctor to point out that all the studies on hydroxychloroqine had only been single drug studies.
Great insight from Gerard M Nadal
Beginning with Anatomy and Physiology in 1980 and progressing with the hard and social sciences, with a single year of major seminary interrupting that, and then becoming a biologist in the 1990's, Never, ever, have I seen such a concerted campaign of disinformation about a medication from within science, as well as without.
It's Breathtaking.
Several months ago Dr. Didier Raolt, Virologist, introduced the world to a MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL.
MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL.
MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL.
MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL.
MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL.
MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL.
Repeated in all uppercase for emphasis.
Look at all of these studies that have been done. Almost every one of them has been on hydroxychloroqine ALONE.
ALONE.
ALONE.
ALONE.
Also repeated for emphasis!
So let's look at Raolt's MULTI-DRUG PROTOCOL and see what it's all about.
Hydroxychloroquine: Helps to inhibit viral penetrance into cells. Also helps cells to take up zinc.
Zinc: Interferes with viral replication within cells. Also interferes with inhibiting viral attachment, infection, uncoating. These are well-known antiviral properties of zinc. Hydroxychloroquine aids in zinc uptake by cells.
Azithromycin: An antibiotic that has no direct effect on virus, as antibiotics only kill bacteria. HOWEVER, the macrolide family of antibiotics (to which azithromycin belongs) as well as Doxycycline have direct modulating effects on immune system cells. They help to suppress the release of chemokines and cytokines, the inflammation-inducing chemicals. The overproduction of these chemicals produce the cytokine storm doing multi-organ system damage in patients.
Now let's consider this THREE-DRUG PROTOCOL of Dr. Raolt. It is meant to:
1. Inhibit viral entry into cells.
2. Enhance zinc uptake into cells.
3. Have zinc work to inhibit viral entry as well as viral replication for those viruses already in cells.
4. Suppress the overreaction of the immune system to the viral infection already underwway.
Zinc is key to much of this, but cannot do its job unless hydroxychloroquine is there to assist getting it into the cells.
So, preventing viral entry, inhibiting production of new virus, inhibiting cytokine overproduction is how we stop the progression of the disease.
If you accept as valid any study on hydroxychloroquine ALONE, take the engine out of your car and plop it down on the ground in your driveway.
Now sit on it and tell me how well it does in getting you to the store, ALONE, BY ITSELF, apart from the chasis, wheels, driveshaft, and the rest of the components.
Silly, right?
That's the same as doing a study on HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE ALONE, APART from the other components of the protocol.
I might also add that most studies have been done on patients with advanced disease, AFTER the cytokine storm has destroyed their organs. Kinda like showing up at the end of a five-alarm fire with a single hose and thinking you'll make a difference.
metmike: Part of this is why the drug has been so successful at treating Lupus and other autoimmune disorders by reducing inflammation. It modulates the over active immune system of those with immune disorders which result in their systems attacking their own bodies(suppresses cytokine storms from their bodies immune system revving up in COVID patients).
Thanks pj!
Just saw your response now.
"And have to say with your constantly pointing out how unfair everyone is to Trump, you do seem much more amenable to positions that support him, more likely to attack positions that oppose him."
I guess you conveniently forget when I criticize him because you like that.
As mentioned, I think in this thread, this is only the 3rd time that I remember actually defending Trumps exact words when he was speaking.
1 was when he said it would be interesting to look into the injection of something like a disenfectant that medical doctors would have to approve.........which got twisted into him personally recommending people drink bleach and all sorts of things, which he did not. He could have worded it better but he didn't say what he was accused of saying.
The other with his hurricane outlook that included Alabama AFTER Alabama was no longer in the threat zone. He was using a forecast over a day old, when Alabama was no longer threatened and that was really bad but the MSM insisted Alabama was never threatened at any time frame from the hurricane which was a lie.
If you are attacking Trump, at least attack him with the facts and right reasons.
It was an OLD forecast, not one that never existed.
In this case, I am more defending him with no.......but he should have done this or that, like those other 2 cases.
There could have been even better verbiage for him to communicate his thoughts on this earlier in the week but he mainly complimented Fauci(and Birx) told us about how they work well together and acknowledged how positive their approval/credibility is.
Amazing that, instead of that, you saw it as nothing but Trump being jealous and all those good things he said about Fauci were really not good...........they were bad because Trump said them and you and others look for a way to spin good things that Trump says to have a bad meaning.
You know its true.
mm:
Here we go one more once.
Fauci says HCQ is ineffective and you disbelieve him. Trump is still pushing it and he and his son reference a really wacko doctor https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-53579773
who supports it who says, "you don't need a mask, there's a cure", and whom trump calls "very impressive" and this apparently doesn't bother you at all. And you claim to base all your positions on "facts" and not to favor Trump?
For me I doubt any further back and forth on this will be productive.
I don’t just claim to base my position on facts. I would never do that without SHOWING those facts. Lots of them.
Your position is based on believing Fauci.......because he’s Fauci.
You are doing exactly what your mischaracterization of me is claiming that I’m doing.
I even explained WHY Fauci is wrong on another thread. If I get the chance I’ll copy it.
+++++++++++
And I have no idea about the whacko docter that says don’t wear masks that you are bringing up. I’m betting he is a whacko doctor and trump is completely full of crap about that. ....as usual.
Did you read a word of me defending that?
Why would I? I could care less about what trump says or does. I only care about the authentic science and facts about HCQ.
Throwing the whacko doctor into it as if I defend it is mischaracterizing me again so that you can attack a flawed position that I don’t have.
I recognize authentic science when numerous facts support it.
And I know that this is almost impossible to believe but every once in while trump gets something (in this case science which allows a person to show facts)right......when others disagree.
Since the position of one side is that he is always wrong about everything.........how can you recognize those once in awhile times when he is right?
Patients’ side statistical information about the use of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 patients was collected. Using it, this study has found:
The raw responses data is attached. It can be mined further, especially when combined with publicly available statistics on the COVID-19 hospitalizations, deaths, tests, infection cases, and how many days pass from the first COVID-19 symptoms and the start of HCQ based treatment. Eventually, more data would allow testing hypotheses:
dear dr fauci and pj...for the 100th time the trick to the drug's usefulness is early treatment. Every study shows this,,,,,its not in dispute...this trickery of giving to some one who is deathly ill was not in the conversation ....and again if you have not yet please go and see what Fauci did during the aids epidemic, he should be in jail not screwing up this pandemic
HCQ..FDA...Dr.Fauci
1 response |
Started by GunterK - Aug. 29, 2020, 5:20 p.m.