The Atlanta shooting rampage that killed six Asian women and two others has, in a single tragic event, turned a national spotlight onto some of the prickliest issues facing American politics and society today: racial attacks related to COVID-19, gun violence, misogyny, racism in policing, and Donald Trump.
Asian American leaders and community members are voicing outrage after a 21-year-old white man admitted to gunning down eight people Tuesday at three separate Asian-owned spas in greater Atlanta.
Demonstrators across the country gathered to protest the recent rise of hateful rhetoric and violent attacks targeting the Asian American Pacific Islander (AAPI) community, while thousands of #StopAsianHate posts flooded Twitter, Instagram and other social media sites.
While the discussion has centered on the souring scourge of anti-Asian violence, the tragic shooting has confronted lawmakers — and the nation — with a host of other explosive topics they’ve grappled with for years — a range of delicate issues touching on race, class, the plight of immigrants and violence against women. Some are hoping the national attention and public outcry will be enough to force Congress to move reforms addressing those problems.
“I’m stunned. We’ve seen the increase in anti-Asian hate crimes; we obviously have been fighting on gun violence. We don’t know what the [shooter’s] motivations are, but it feels very difficult to imagine there wasn’t something about anti-Asian hate in here,” Progressive Caucus Chairwoman Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), who is Indian American, told The Hill. “We’re all struggling with it because we have so many AAPIs who are on the front lines: doctors, who are walking home alone, helpers in different communities who don’t feel safe.”
The outcry is also amplifying the year-long debate over Trump’s sharp rhetoric blaming China for America's COVID outbreak — a characterization his critics say has only fostered the spike in attacks on Asian Americans.
“It goes back to Trump and Republicans continuing to fuel hate by saying things like ‘China virus’ and other racist horrible slogans,” Jayapal said. “And of course the fact that we have not reigned in guns — we are just feeling the weight of it.”
That frustration, anger, sadness and terror felt in the Asian community boiled over Thursday on Capitol Hill, where Rep. Grace Meng (D-N.Y.) chided her GOP colleagues for using anti-Asian rhetoric like “Kung Flu” and “Wuhan virus” to discuss the coronavirus — and for bringing up the Southwest border and Black Lives Matter protests — during a hearing focused on discrimination and violence against Asians.
“Your president and your party and your colleagues can talk about issues with any other country that you want. But you don’t have to do it by putting a bullseye on the back of Asian Americans across this country, on our grandparents, on our kids,” said a visibly shaken Meng, who is Chinese American and represents the heavily Asian neighborhood of Flushing.
“This hearing was to address the hurt and pain of our community to find solutions, and we will not let you take our voice away from us!”
In the 48 hours since the Atlanta massacre, much of the national focus has turned to the wave of escalating attacks against Asian Americans since the start of the pandemic, from verbal harassment and physical assaults on elderly Asians to this week’s mass shooting.
Rep. Judy Chu (D-Calif.), head of the Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus, said Twitter attacks on Asian Americans jumped 900 percent in the early months after Trump began bashing China over COVID-19. And the group Stop AAPI Hate said it has tracked reports of about 3,800 hate incidents targeting Asian Americans during the past year — most of them against women.
I usually try to stay out of the weeds. This hate crime deal is a good example. People were murdered for God's sake, you don't think that hate was involved...does not matter if they were Asian, Alaskan , Or Albanian so why waste the time. Arrest the bad guys, punish them and forget the race baiting
It was done out of anti-Asian racism and should be treated as hate crimes. I'm guessing that mcfarm is a white male and thus has never been subjected to racism or some other form of bigotry as a minority or sexism. Until one personally experiences the ugliness of racism or other forms of bigotry against a minority, there isn't the empathy.
Trump definitely fueled the anti-Asian flames with his emphasis on calling COVID a "China" virus in a very negative tone. I'm so glad the scum lost. He was THE worst.
good points...the virus came from Wuhan. Murder is the crime. Hate was involved. Get over yourself.
What we have is a massive increase in hate crimes against Asians.
Hate is not going to reduce that is it?
Hating the person that you think caused it is not going to reduce that either.
But not acknowledging the reason for the hate is also going to make it harder to see the problem too.
And it is a HUGE problem by an objective, clear thinking, non racist point of view.
Not maybe or just a little problem a HUGE, REAL problem.
Not seeing the problem, means not addressing it to crush it. You absolutely cannot just look the other way when its this HUGE.
I am all about data and facts/evidence:
"There were 122 incidents of anti-Asian American hate crimes in 16 of the country’s most populous cities in 2020, an increase of almost 150% over the previous year, according to data compiled by California State University’s Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism and exclusively shared with VOA."
You may think that 122 incidents is not very many but should consider several things.
1. This was just in 16 cities
2. Asians are are less than 6% of the population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Asian_Americans
3. 150% is a huge increase and we know exactly what some of the factors were in causing it.
4. Personally, I think it will die down, especially after we are allowed to have lives closer to normal. There will no longer need to be a scapegoat for causing COVID to blame it on.
It's actually pretty retarded to blame Asian Americans that couldn't have had one iota of contribution to the COVID pandemic and are suffering just as much as everybody else.
Like with most/all hate of other people because of race, there is ZERO logic or rational for the hate.
I have had numerous Chinese(adopted) students play chess for me, a few with Chinese parents(I've coached 3,000 students and currently am at 5 schools-we had to miss this season because of COVID), one from S. Vietnam and a couple from Japan as well as one that recently came from El Salvador and several Muslims.
I have gotten to know some of their families. They are some of the best people in this country and people that hate them because of their country of origin or religion, without even knowing them are totally messed up in the head.
I'm not pointing to these killings in GA. That was one mentally ill dude that needs to be separated from society because he is ultra dangerous to everyone.
I'm talking about the many thousands of usually non dangerous people that are interacting with the rest of society in an acceptable way............except for one thing. They hate other people not like them for no other reason than they don't know them and they are different and feel that justifies disrepecting them and violating their civil rights.
Thinking about this will raise my blood pressure as much as reading about the fake climate crisis (-:
This is another media created frenzy for the "woke Issue Du Jour". As an aside, let's blame Trump, who is no longer is office, for fanning the flames of this imaginary "Asian Directed Anger:".
The Atlanta shootings had nothing to do with Asians. There were 2 murder vicitms who were not even Asian. You had a nut case who claimed he was a sex addict and was shooting hookers (not Asians) to eliminate temptation.
It just amazes me how many people jump on board this total crap without a second thought.
Tim to top that the police spokesman who quoted the suspect directly has now lost his job because the media has decided without fact that this has to be racism.....got to be, has to be, no other thing it could be and that awful police man had no business quoting the suspect.....Jesus can they just stop please
"I'm not pointing to these killings in GA. That was one mentally ill dude that needs to be separated from society because he is ultra dangerous to everyone.
I'm talking about the many thousands of usually non dangerous people that are interacting with the rest of society in an acceptable way............except for one thing. They hate other people not like them for no other reason than they don't know them and they are different and feel that justifies disrespecting them and violating their civil rights."
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/66820/#66830
No comments on this, the entire point that I was making?
My comment was not directed at you, I am refering to the reaction I am seeing to the Atl shootings. Our local papers, people in congress, social media, all labeling this a sign of increased aggression towards Asian Americans. It's nothing of the sort and is a perfect example of the hyperbole that is helping to ruin this country.
Thanks Tim,
I get that and pointed that out about this messed up dude who is a danger to everybody in society as evidenced by this 1 incident..............which was mega extreme in nature and an anomaly and being used for.................what?
1. To try to make people think that there is a problem right now with a huge increase in racial hate crimes against Asians, for political reasons........ when there really isn't?
2. To try to make people see that there is a problem right now with a huge increase in racial hate crimes against Asians.............because there really is? If this is true because of political reasons, then I like those politics!
So the options/choices are to pick either #1 or pick #2 or make your own #3 that is different and give us the reasons please.
Regardless of your choice, please address the huge increase in hate crimes against Asians or tell us why you think that it does not exist.
Thanks
I honestly don't know what to believe anymore MM. Whats a good source of data? Is racism a huge problem right now? I somehow don't think so. I know lots of people. Deal with lots of people. I don't see racism in my day to day. Not to blacks, not to Hispanics, not to Asians... Everyone I know deals with people based on who they are. Not their race or anything else. Just how they treat others. And I live in the totally racist south!!!!
Yes, that's anecdotal and subjective. But I don't trust any "data" out there. It all seems to be manipulated for one subjective agenda or another.
I know about the shootings in Atlanta and I know how they were presented, and I know the facts and the media presentation are miles apart.
I think back to my studies in philosophy all those years ago. Descartes questioned reality. He had no proof, in his mind, that he even existed. He started with the premise "I think, therefore I am".(Cogito, ergo sum) He went on into existentialism and even a bit beyond... Intriguing.
But I am rambling I suppose. Guess I am having an existential crisis. I don't know what's real anymore outside of what I can touch, see and feel. The rest seems like total bullshyt.
Thanks for the honest reply Tim.
I don't hang out with any racists either.
I understand not knowing what to believe anymore. We are told a ton of things that are the opposite of the truth..............a climate optimum, that is greening up the planet......... is really a climate crisis killing the planet.
You must wear a cloth mask to protect you............even if you already had COVID or have been vaccinated. Don't buy the N95 masks that work, save them for the people that actually need them and use the cloth ones..........oh wait, the health care workers are all vaccinated?? Still don't wear the N95 masks, instead, wear 2 cloth masks.
No gathering in groups of 10 or more because of how contagious COVID is............unless its a civil rights protest...........then thousands smashed together, result in zero spread of COVID.
But smart guys like you can usually tell what the truth is and what isn't.
Do you think that this is made up?
I dunno.
I know violence against all kinds of people is way up all over the country. Police are starting to go AWOL. Not sure I blame them. Are Asians unique? I dunno. Wear a MAGA hat in a major city. Don't think it matters if you are Asian or anything else. You'll be confronted. That behaviour seems to be cheered on these days.
Maybe focusing on things like that is the problem.
Saw a meme on Facebook today. A guy was wearing a veterans cap. Another guy wearing an MAGA hat said "Thank you for your service", and the vet repkied "Fuck you traitor". And everybody laughed.
I sincerely doubt this actually happened, but this sort of thing breaks my heart.
A few years ago, it was a sport for urban black youths to cold cock white people (usually elderly) while yelling "F U Whitey", and this was not considered a hate crime. Look it up. If they were arrested, they were not charged with hate crimes.
So, what is the criteria for hate crimes?
Tim,
I grew up in Detroit in the 60's...into the 70's and can write a book on my experiences being abused for being a white boy and VERY afraid in some neighborhoods because I was white.
So the topic here is attacks on Asians and some of your responses have been:
1. A few years ago, it was a sport for urban black youths to cold cock white people (usually elderly) while yelling "F U Whitey", and this was not considered a hate crime
2. A guy was wearing a veterans cap. Another guy wearing an MAGA hat said "Thank you for your service", and the vet repkied "Fuck you traitor". And everybody laughed.
3. Wear a MAGA hat in a major city. Don't think it matters if you are Asian or anything else. You'll be confronted.
4. Is racism a huge problem right now? I somehow don't think so. I know lots of people. Deal with lots of people. I don't see racism in my day to day.
5. I don't know what's real anymore outside of what I can touch, see and feel. The rest seems like total bullshyt.
Just checking to make sure we have your opinions on the 150% increase in attacks on Asian Americans correct and not trying to change your mind.
Actually, sometimes, when we read our own responses back with an open mind, that is the only way to adjust our own thinking.
Trying to convince people that they are wrong and we are right, more often than not, causes them to dig in and defend their position even more vigorously.
My point is that the phrase "Hate Crime" is extermemly subjective and it's use makes me automatically suspicious because when it's in use, there is political motivation behind it. Every time. The concept of "Hate Crime" is Orwellian and flies in the face of the 4th amendment.
I agree that there is frequent abuse of this and frequent use of the "race card" by race baiters that often want to damage a person by falsely accusing them of being a racist.
Maybe it's because of that, you find it so hard to see/know when racism is REALLY happening.
You guys are having an interesting discussion. I am glad that you don’t consider the Atl. shooting to be an anti-asian hate crime. This guy was obviously fighting his own demons, that had nothing to do with Covid
At the core of this so-called anti-asian hate crime wave is Trump’s choice of calling Covid19 the “Chinese Virus”.
It is not uncommon, to name a disease or virus after the country where it first appeared (such as the German Measles). However, since Trump did so, any anti-asian sentiment must then be Trump’s fault.
No doubt, in such a situation, there will always be some nuts who attack others, just because their ancestors came from the country that first experienced the disease.. It doesn’t make sense, it's illogical, and it's hateful and must be stopped..
Unfortunately, our MSM takes great pleasure in exaggerating such incidents, such as just happened in Atlanta. It’s good for their ratings, and it gives them another chance to blame Trump.
As another example…. Providing you read other news sources than the MSM, you may well be aware of the so-called “knock out game” that’s being played by young juveniles on the East Coast. Their goal is to sneak up behind an elderly person and knock him/her out with one blow.
Not long ago, an elderly man from Thailand was the victim of such an attack in San Francisco. Was this incident an act of anti-asian sentiment, or was it just one of the frequent “knock-out game” incidents?
The MSM rarely has paid any attention to this “knock out game”, but, because the victim in this case was “Asian”, the incident received great attention by our MSM.
It was mentioned that the number of anti-asian hate crimes increased by 150%. I have no doubt about the accuracy of this number.
But the number of murders, robberies, car jackings, burglaries, etc, increased by similar percentages.
Maybe, this shocking increase of criminality is a by-product of the lawlessness and anarchy that we saw after George Floyd’s death.
And I don’t believe, we can blame Trump for the anarchy. If anyone is to blame, it’s the dem. politicians who ignored, and in some cases even encouraged this lawlessness.
thanks much Gunter! Some good points in there.
When we are truly objective and not political and care about ALL people we don’t focus only on certain types of crime.
Not just crime committed by white cops against blacks, not just black on black crime, not just crime against Muslims or Asians or MEGA people.
However, the country is so politically divided, that each side does exactly that.
There are 2 sides battling each other right now on almost every issue, including this one.
The frame of mind is that our side is 100% correct on everything, your side is 100% wrong.....taken to an absurd extreme as evidenced by how each side treats crime based on what side they are on.
One side, only sees certain types of minority crimes......black profiling by cops.....crime against Asians or Muslims. And completely disregards crimes that don’t fit their agenda......black on black crime, acts against MEGA supporters.
The other side has the polar opposite views on what crimes are important .......black on black violence.........MEGA attacks. While completely downplaying the minority crimes that mean everything to the other side.....in fact BECaUSE they mean everything to the other side.
If one side is for or against something, no matter how righteous or legit it is.....the other side has to be against it or find reasons that it’s not legit.
And both sides are absolutely certain that the other side is the only one doing exactly what I described above and they are not.
How the heck did we get this way?
We can see much of it by looking at what our politicians have done to us so that they can win power.
They have identified a massive political battle field for us. There are hundreds of individual battles fought on this political battle field and most of them feature 2 polar opposite positions.............by design.
The objective is to win as many battles for their side as possible to get as much control and power as possible for them.
Then, it's winner take all!
The best way to win battles.............and that's what they end up being.....battles, is to portray every issue as one sided as possible.......their side ALWAYS being morally and authentically the ones that represent the real truth(often by manufacturing it, along with subjective facts) and the other side is smeared and portrayed as evil or ignorant. .
The American people, in turn get their news interpreted thru this prism of politics.
After decades of this it naturally causes people to align with one side or the other...............because there is no 3rd option.
You are either for one side or the other side because those are your choices on everything political.
The political puppet masters care most about election day. If they can capture your mind and get your vote.............it's ALWAYS, winner takes all in the real world. If they win by 1%, at the ballet box........ the other person goes home and they get 100% control, not 51% control(even if that's the number of votes they got). ALL OF IT.
Every situation/topic has become a source for individual battles for each side to try to win. Every situation has well defined positions for each side.The more extremely positive you can portray your side and extremely negative you can portray the other side, the more likely you are to win the battle in each realm.
Your side is 100% right, the other side 100% wrong. The objective is winner take all in every realm.
The MSM, which is controlled by professional communicators who got into that field because they want to have an influence on peoples lives..........is massively dominated by liberals. We live in an age where"freedom of the press" means the news is not just reported to us but also interpreted for us at the same time.
People who communicate to others are often not just doing it because they have nothing better to do,................they do it because they want to send messages to other people, right?
Then you have the social media....dominated by people who want to send messages to other people............to get other people to believe in their belief system........which lines up with one of the other's political party believe system described earlier.
And we live in the age of mind boggling communication power.
Thousands of times greater than just a few decades ago. This has magnified all the extremes by thousands of times.
And here we are.
The age of enlightenment and access to unlimited information and knowledge.
But with all that information in politics, being presented to us as black and white. You get all your information for your political belief system by going to all the sources which tell it to you the way you like to hear it..........which makes you feel good and reinforces what you think that you know.
While the other side, does the same thing with their numerous sources and believes the complete opposite.
And it all boils down to a political battle field, defined by our politicians trying to win power.
While the people being controlled/brain washed with propaganda all see this happening with clarity...............to the other side. Their side is always the entire truth.
When Greta speaks, for instance, one side awards her Time's person of the year and proposes making statutes in her honor. They worship her with blind faith. They are convinced that she represents truth and authentic science.
The other side laughs at the really ignorant, blatantly anti science propaganda that an obvious United Nations puppet/abused child spews out.
Both sides are vehement that they have it 100% right, the other side 100% wrong.
There are 100+ more situations like that.
It's all about the politics/agendas.....by design.
You and me are just the targets. If they can get more of us on one side.............it's winner take all.
You people have a history of "we are right and you are wrong" dating all the way beck to the end of the civil war
The norther population moved into the south and took over land from southern people because of the inability to pay the taxes imposed by the north on southern land owners. Southern land owners had no ability to pay the tax so they packed up what small possessions and money they had and moved further west to escape the oppressive north
Texas and Ca. was the two most popular destinations
Even so, the north send the Blue Coats west to secure peace with the native americans, often killing in total destruction because :they were right and had a right to settle the land. Caught up in this was oppression for many southern folks who also moved west and were oppressed by the Blue Coats or the general population for stealing a cow when the family was hungry
So you see this thing about we are right and you are wrong is nothing new
It is ingrained in your DNA for power and wealth
Later your country moved to world policies of power over other countries, which continues to this day
So: to say you are racist might be a misnomer or is war against another country racist, to some small degree or perhaps larger
Perhaps power and wealth would be the greater sin and this aggression against minorities is sort of like a trickle down DNA effect. That may not be a good description but the only one I can think of, just off the top of my head. I may be wrong. Reminds me of the school yard bully or bullies aggression against the smaller, weaker person. And don't think the female part can be just as aggressive. So: Where did this aggression come from
Or maybe you think racism and power are different to you folks. Are attacks on minorities racism or some sort of power thing.
Just FYI: Most attacks on Asians, measured by % of population is committed by the black population
The word "Racist" has lot all meaning.
Case in point.
My neighbor doesn't mow his lawn for a month. I call him lazy.
If he is not a member of a "designiated victim group". It's fine.
If he is, I am racist.
"Racist" used to mean holding an opinion, usually negative, of an individual based on his race.
"Just FYI: Most attacks on Asians, measured by % of population is committed by the black population"
Thanks Wayne.
What do you base that statement on?
This is how Asians actually feel below. Are they all imagining it?
Why would they imagine it?
This was long BEFORE the recent incident.
Is it from this, as Gunter suggested?
"Maybe, this shocking increase of criminality is a by-product of the lawlessness and anarchy that we saw after George Floyd’s death."
"If anyone is to blame, it’s the dem. politicians who ignored, and in some cases even encouraged this lawlessness."
Were the rioters that did billions in damage, injuring hundreds of cops, killing some of them and encouraged by the MSM targeting Asians too?
Cops, especially white cops and property and other items related to their cause for sure but I don't recall 1 Asian or anything about that or why that would be an issue/target...............maybe somebody can find me 1 legit story or piece of evidence about that shows 1 attack of Asians during a protest/riot that was intentionally race related. Seems like almost all of them were NOT at riots/violent protests based on the reports.
But I'm open minded and all about evidence and can change my mind if shown evidence that suggests that.
With regards to that. The responses by Asians below were not to them worrying about CRIMES, which would be a natural if lawlessness as Gunter described went up. It was worrying about HATE crimes. Specifically HATE only crimes. ...targeting them because they are ASIAN.
The persistent problem here is the "fuzziness" you inject when you start using the phrase "hate crime". As Gunter asked above, when the man from Thailand was the victim of the knockout game, was that a "hate crime", was it the result of him being Asian? Maybe you could make that argument, but what about all the non-asian victims? When you've introduced subjective opinion to the equation, the answer is not scientific.
Wikipedia shows a long list of "references" on the subject of "knock out games". Scanning a few of them, I gathered that the victim is always of another race, or, in case of jewish victims, another religion. "Hate crimes"... all of them!
And if you look further, if prosecuted, they are often not prosecuted as "hate Crimes"...
"When you've introduced subjective opinion to the equation, the answer is not scientific."
Thanks much for the additional, WONDERFUL comments Tim, especially about my favorite topic.....science!
So is this police data, that I'm posting from the link below for the 3rd time in this thread, science or is it subjective opinion?
Or are the comments below that science or subjective opinions?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Science or subjective opinions below?
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/66820/#66884
1. A few years ago, it was a sport for urban black youths to cold cock white people (usually elderly) while yelling "F U Whitey", and this was not considered a hate crime
2. A guy was wearing a veterans cap. Another guy wearing an MAGA hat said "Thank you for your service", and the vet repkied "Fuck you traitor". And everybody laughed.
3. Wear a MAGA hat in a major city. Don't think it matters if you are Asian or anything else. You'll be confronted.
4. Is racism a huge problem right now? I somehow don't think so. I know lots of people. Deal with lots of people. I don't see racism in my day to day.
5. I don't know what's real anymore outside of what I can touch, see and feel. The rest seems like total bullshyt.
So I provided what, to me is science.
Waiting for your science.
I am very, very happy with just your thoughtful and sincere opinions here............but since YOU brought up science, I will hold you accountable to the very standards that you just declared are the most important in this realm.
We know crime is up in major cities. How do thse numbers compare to overall crime rates? We've seen a 30-50% jump in homicides in Major US cities between 2019 and 2020.
And again, the term "Hate Crime" is very subjective. Were the Atl shooting a "Hate Crime"? Sure doesn't look that way, but it sure sounds like it's being treated like one.
Since you've take the discussion to my area of expertise and asked that we show science, I am doing back flips over the opportunity (-:
https://www.csusb.edu/sites/default/files/FACT%20SHEET-%20Anti-Asian%20Hate%202020%203.2.21.pdf
FACTSHEET:Anti‐Asian Prejudice March2020–Center for the Study of Hate&Extremism
Anti‐Asian Hate Crime Reported to Police in America’s Largest Cities:2020Anti‐Asian Hate Crimes Surge149% ,while overall hate crime Drops 7% in 2020.
This was data from the previous years. A moderate, consistent drop over the first decade in hate crime vs Asians, then a slight increase the last few years, then the HUGE spike higher that does not show up here because this is previous data thru 2019.
The number for 2020 is 392, which is the highest number in the last 25 years of data and at the top of the chart, if it was graphed!
+++++++++++++++++++++++
_8ZMtveJ.png)
.png)
2020 set a new record for most hate crimes against Asians!
.png)
The stat below doesn't tell us about who is doing the attacks, just who is afraid of Asians, which is a measure of ignorance(but a clue) and it's pretty much all parties, so it does NOT make a strong case for 1 party doing all of it, which is what the MSM will have you believe..png)
Thanks for the interesting statistics. I didn't know my town, LA, was that bad.
it would also be helpful to see stats on the race of the perpetrators, together with the data you presented.
Gunter,
The main reason for it to be so bad in NY and CA is that the population of Asians living there is massively higher.
Not much of it in rural America, so you can't use this data to finger these people...............but there are very few Asians living there too.
The data on this tells us clearly that this is not strongly correlated with political party.
Afterall, its happening in the areas that are vastly democratic strongholds. Though the actual breakdown of fear from above, suggests that its almost equally shared by political affiliation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Asian_Americans
Percentage Asian American by county, 2010 Census
"it would also be helpful to see stats on the race of the perpetrators, together with the data you presented."
OK, here is the map with US black population.
Most blacks live in the South/Southeast(brought there to work on cotton plantations as slaves hundreds of years ago).
Most Asians do NOT live in those same areas and so thats why almost NO violence is happening where the MOST blacks live.
I think, because of the disparity of locations in where most Asians vs where the most blacks live, that trying to interpret data of black violence against Asians would be tricky.
392 is certainly a jump, but, statistically, it's a very small sample of data in a country with a population of well over 300 million.
We still haven't seen a comparison between this spike and the overall spike in violent crimes against all people in major US cities.
"We still haven't seen a comparison between this spike and the overall spike in violent crimes against all people in major US cities."
The important metric to measure this was right there for you Tim, also in the headlines. To help you again, here it is. Pretty eye popping if you objectively look at just the science/data on ASIAN HATE crimes compared to ALL hate crimes.
So what if ALL violence went up? ALL hate crimes went DOWN...........except for this group of people.
Anti‐Asian Hate Crime Reported to Police in America’s Largest Cities: 2020Anti‐Asian Hate Crimes Surge149% ,while overall hate crime Drops 7% in 2020.
https://www.csusb.edu/sites/default/files/FACT%20SHEET-%20Anti-Asian%20Hate%202020%203.2.21.pdf
Thanks for providing me these opportunities to show the science Tim. This is why I have insisted that, by a wide margin, my favorite posts are those that challenge me vs those that just agree with me. ...which is what most people prefer.
When challenged, an authentic scientist is forced to do 1 of 2 things.
1. Show the data to prove their position or
2. If it doesn't exist, learn something and adjust your position.
Then, we have those that don't practice the scientific method and they opt for a 3rd choice.
3. Defend your position with any justification possible. Ignore the data that shows it to be flawed and interpret everything so that it tells you that you are right.
I am dedicated to #1 and #2.
Tim: 392 is certainly a jump, but, statistically, it's a very small sample of data in a country with a population of well over 300 million.
metmike: It's also the highest number since records have been kept on this metric, going back 25 years, but you will compare it to an even bigger number, 300,000,000 people living in the US to convince yourself that it's not that big.
There were obviously many times more incidents than those reported to the police(like verbal ones) based on how hate crimes are reported. We can safely assume, whatever that much larger number is, if you were one of those Asian Americans attacked, your position wasn't "oh well, with 300 million people living in this country, we should expect that sort of thing................guess I'm just one of the unlucky ones"
The biggest flaw in using the 300 million is that this is happening entirely where the Asian Americans live.
It's not good science to throw in US population stats for the entire population, that includes a majority of places where no Asians live.
Here's the map again. You asked for the science earlier Tim, so I am loving the opportunity to provide it and learn some things myself that I didn't know. Thank you!
I think that this thread should be renamed "Anger over anger over anti-Asian violence" based on many of the posts in here made by folks not named met-Mike or wxfollower.
I firmly believe that Trump has contributed with his very negative way of saying "China virus". That being said, I also think that the knockout game against mainly white folks is a legit hate crime that the media largely seems to ignore.
Thanks Larry!
Yes, I agree 100% with that statement on the knockout game and why I posted this:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/66820/#66884
"Tim,
I grew up in Detroit in the 60's...into the 70's and can write a book on my experiences being abused for being a white boy and VERY afraid in some neighborhoods because I was white.
So the topic here is attacks on Asians"
The media, absolutely ignores racially motivated violence from blacks against whites. I lived it for a couple of decades but don't think its that bad in Detroit as it was 50 years later.
Funny thing and this is the absolute truth. When I moved here to southwest Indiana in 1982, I was having culture shock in some negative ways(I LOVE this place now) but one of the things I immediately recognized as a huge positive was ....WOW! the black people that live here are really nice to me!
At 18, when I got a Summer job working in the factory at Ford Motor Co., where something like 95% of the employees were black was the first time in my life that I stopped being afraid of blacks. I was no longer a target...............I was one of them.....the hourly employees who were convinced that they were being abused constantly. The target was "the Man" the white forman and bosses. The UAW was their defender for all sorts of frivolous grievances that would creativity be manufactured for all sorts of reasons. The majority were not like that but many were and for the first time in my life, I didn't worry for my safety because I was white around a majority of black men. It was also around 95% men too. This was also an environment much different than being on the street.
It's relevant to this topic to mention overlooked racism against whites......because its whites but it does not negate the reality of racism against Asians.
How many racist attacks occurred because a whiteman was taking it out on a Chinese woman, after a black man abused him? Near zero.
Funny story related to this.
When I was 19, the drinking age was 18 in Michigan and I had a severe drinking problem.
I competed power lifting and body building and could bench press 345 lbs at 170 lbs, so I didn't let it affect my conditioning/strength.
My dad, who grew up in the inner city of Detroit as a little red haired Irish boy that was picked on(never knew his Dad) learned to fight and taught all the bullies a lesson that picked on him.
He said that the only guy in his school "that could take him" was a big fat kid and he said that it was only in the deep water(at the local pool) because the fat kid could float and dunked him under water.
When I was in Kindergarten, one of the memories I have is how Dad taught me to take care of the huge bully, Dave Smith, that lived 3 doors down from us. I was whining at the dinner table about this one night and Dad told me the trick. Wait for Dave Smith, on his way to school tomorrow morning. When you see him getting close to our house, run up to him and punch him in the face as hard as you can!
It worked!
For 8 years, Dave never picked on me. Than, in 8th grade, Dave must have forgotten his lessen and I used Dad's advise again on Dave.
Years later, when Dad was almost 90(an extremely holy, mild mannered peace maker), I asked him if I had that memory right. Did he really insist that I punch Dave in the face unprovoked?
He said, "You were a good boy and did exactly what I told you to do and I was proud of you!"
So he got me a speed bag when I was a kid and I spent hours in our furnace room downstairs, having fun on the speed bag..............not for quick fists but it was a fun outlet and I was really good at it.
Little did I know that when I was 19, and I was drunk in my favorite bar and somebody picked a fight with me(it wasn't that unusual at the bars I hung out at) it would make me superior. It was like the other guys were moving in slow motion....thanks to training on the speed bag for fun for years.
So I had around a dozen fist fights and got this reputation of somebody that would win real quickly with my fast fists and power(I lost 2 fights, one because the guy went back to his car and came back with a tire iron and bashed my head in on Easter Morning 1975).
Anyway, at the YMCA where I worked out, I became friends with "Wild Bill" a Mexican guy that boxed at the Herman Gardens Boxing Club. Bill liked to fight(and was missing a couple of teeth). We would talk about the bar fights that we got into and he kept encouraging me to come down to the boxing club to get in the ring and fight. I got real interested and finally agreed to meet him there.
Herman Gardens was the epicenter of black hatred for whites. On the tv news, they actually told white people to not enter the Southfield expressway there(on Joy Road), because of the numerous incidents of white people, waiting at the red light there, having their windows broken and several pulled out of the car and beaten.
So I walked into the entrance of the Herman Gardens Recreation Center where Bill told me to go in and even though it was 45 years ago, remember the experience vivdly.
Immediately inside was a basketball court, with 10 black guys playing on the floor. When I walked in, the game stopped, the guy with the ball just held the ball and they all stood there looking at me in disbelief, nobody said a word.
I asked very loudly "Do you guys know where the boxing room is?"
A few of them pointed to a door on the other side of the gym but nobody said a word.
I have to take our dog to get a haircut and will leave you in suspense until later about what happened after that
We hear all the time how the brains of young males haven't fully developed, I was the quintessential example of that in this story (-:
Since I had spent 2 Summers working at the Dearborn Assembly plant working with 95% black men who treated me as their equal, I was mostly over my fear of black gangs hostile to white boys. .............which is part of why I was doing this really dumb thing.
After the boxing room was pointed out to me, I walked across the gym and went in. The 10 black guys playing basketball, just stood there and watched me, not saying anything.....as if they had never seen a white person before.
Inside the boxing room, there were a couple of guys already there, who were equally shocked by a white person showing up. I announced that I was there to meet my friend Bill who invited me.
Nobody spoke a word to me but they constantly stared at me, sitting in a chair waiting impatiently for Bill and causing me to feel REALLY uncomfortable. Every time that somebody put on their gloves, they came over to me to tie the gloves.
I had never even worn a pair of boxing gloves in my life or tied them. I'm certain that this must have been a way for them to test me, to see if I knew how to do it properly. They must have realized that I didn't know what I was doing as I just tied them with a regular knot.
Their coach came in and I told him too that I was there to meet Bill.
There were several sparring matches and I just watched. For the rest of them, I was the main item to watch in the room. I was never afraid but man, this was making me extremely uncomfortable.
You have to remember also, that I was built like a tank back then and came in with a tight shirt. No doubt they were thinking "this white boy must think he's pretty tough, showing up at our boxing club" and "he looks pretty tough, let's see what happens when he get's into the ring"
After at least 90 minutes of feeling very unwelcomed but never threatened, it was clear that Bill was not going to show and I left.
Next morning at the gym, Bill was there.
metmike: I went to the boxing club and waited almost 2 hours for you yesterday, where the heck were you?
Bill: Sorry man...................(excuse that I don't remember) I'll be there tonight though and can meet you then.
metmike: No way. I could tell nobody wanted me there so I don't think this is a good idea anymore.
Years later, and being able to think more clearly about the incident, Bill did me a massive favor by not showing up. This was not a place that offered boxing lessons for beginners. They had all boxed for years and while I was there, it was nothing but sparring with each other.
Maybe Bill would have offered me an opportunity to use his gloves and get into the ring with somebody. Somebody that is trained and experienced. Knows how to defend themselves and to box, against me, a guy that was good on the speed bag, very strong and won a bunch of bar rights but never boxed in their life.
They would have totally enjoyed pulverizing me mercilessly. Almost a sure thing. They would have pummeled me relentlessly until I was either knocked out or covering up my face and pleading uncle or turned around so they couldn't hit me anymore and giving up.
What a dumb thing for a white boy with an inflated ego and too much testosterone to do!
Looks like Herman Gardens continues to have high crime rates today. This map was from just the last weekend:
https://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit/herman+gardens
thank you for sharing these stories with us. I especially liked the one of you as a bullied kid.... somehow, it fits into the subject of this thread
so now, is it ok if we call you "knock-out mike"?
Thanks Gunter!
I'm thinking that mentality of my Dad teaching me to stand up for myself as a kid, got engaged and applied in a bad way when I was drunk in a bar and somebody picked a fight with me.
I say "picked a fight" with me but I also used to challenge strangers in the bar to arm wrestling and beer chugging for $1. I could chug a beer in just over 1 second by opening my throat and only lost arm wrestling to one person, the quarterback of the Wayne State football team (Mike Donahue) that could throw the ball 70 yards......and it wasn't close, he whupped me bad left handed. We were both left handed.
So imagine this drunk guy, challenging all these strangers to these competitions and when they said no, I might prod them anyway. Not in a mean way but like "c'mon, let's do it for free then just to see who will win.
I was lucky to have only had my head bashed in with a tire iron.
Several times, they got irritated with me and would punch me or push me. metmike's drunk brain went into autopilot from his Dad's conditioning and it was game on.
That same year, when my head was bashed in at the Shaefer Bar parking lot, the cop that lived on our block, across the street, Norm Seigal was killed at the same bar. Shot in the parking lot by a Muslim while on duty. Could have easily been me.
We lived just over 2 miles southeast of Herman Gardens in a pretty nice, middle income neighborhood actually in Dearborn, less than 1 block from the Detroit city limit.
So, here are the scientific numbers from your chart.
TOTALS 1845 1717 -7% N/A 149% 49 122.
Total hate crimes 2019 -1845
Total hate crimes 2020-1717 for a drop of 7%
Total Asian hate crimes for 2019 -49
Total Asian Hate crimes from 2020-122 for an increase of 149%
There are about 15 million Asians in the US so 122/15,000,000= .00081%
Along the same lines, say you have a dollar, and you add 2 more dollars. Your net worth has gone up by 200%
Both this increase and the 149% increase in "Asian Hate Crimes" is absolutely scientific, mathematically proven. Both are also perfect examples of hyperbole.
And thats before we even answer the question of just how a "Hate Crime" is defined.
"Total Asian Hate crimes from 2020-122 for an increase of 149%"
Thanks Tim.........Just one big oversight
You are using only the hate crimes that the FBI opened up an official investigation over.
"Stop AAPI Hate, a hate tracker created last year by several Asian American groups, has recorded more than 2,800 incidents of racism and discrimination targeting Asian Americans between March and December 2020."
We all know that the majority of them are minor incidents but the vast majority of verbal abuse would not even be reported at all. But maybe that doesn't matter to someone that is not sure that verbal abuse should even be a hate crime.
Is that you Tim?
I am not sure but words, when used to hurt a person, especially when they target somebody very vulnerable and young can be devastating.
What do you think Tim?
Compared to 18,000,000 Asians living in the US, I guess 2,800 (for 10 months) is just a tiny fraction as you say....... not a high enough % to register as important in your book?
So in your opinion, how much higher than 2,800 should the hate crimes targeting Asian Americans be in order for people to consider it noteworthy/a serious problem?
Maybe that's the main reason for your view. You thought that there were only 122 hate crimes against Asian Americans last year, 23 times too low.
If it was just 122, I would agree with you Tim that there is no problem.
Yes, lets expand the definition of "Hate Crime" to include stuff that people say that could be intrerpreted as mean, and while we're at it, lets indict my character and label me as someone who doesn't care about people who might be saying mean stuff. For the record, I'll need a little more data to form a conclusion, but if we are talking about a few instances per million, I may have to look elsewhere for a crisis du jour.
Also, considering the level of scrutiny we've placed on sources of late, you may want to spend a little time on the methods of "California State University’s Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism".
And no, your chart was not FBI data. Here is the description for below the data.
"Anti-Asian hate crime in 16 of America’s largest cities increased 149% in 2020 according to an analysis of official preliminary police data by the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino, with the first spike occurring in March and April amidst a rise in COVID cases and negative stereotyping of Asians relating to the pandemic."
Thanks Tim,
I’ve actually been learning a ton of new stuff about hate crimes, especially what defines a hate crime, which I’ll share later in a new thread, since this one is getting long.
You would have to assume that somebody that only does this (moderatore), because they want to make the world a better place and stress loving and respecting each other regardless of differences would have this opinion on hate crimes.
I am the polar opposite of drunk Mike over 40 years ago because I discovered what’s most important in life by a wide margin.....partly from being that way and being able to learn from lessons of how my actions hurt other people.....and I like sharing it because the quality of life that i experience by loving my neighbor(s)......which are often complete strangers is what I want others to experience.
Tim,
I sincerely apologize for giving the impression of indighting your character for not caring about people that say mean things. I am more than happy to continue this discussion but am concerned that it will lead to additional impressions.
I think that you are a good person, with well defined ethics who stands up for individual rights, who is right at the top of generous contributors here......giving unselfishly and sharing your knowledge and valued insights that we could never replace, so I don’t want to try to use you as an example to push my love agenda. ....which to be honest, I am sort of doing....which is why I apologize.
One of the reasons that I like telling shocking Mike stori es about when I grew up in Detroit is that it shows that even somebody with the worst imaginable behavior....I was in jail 3 different times by the time I was 21 for drinking related incidents.....can see the light.
Experiencing the darkness and knowing the difference is why I feel my experiences are profoundly unique and have been paramount in shaping my mind......defining my mission to reveal objective truths, independant of politics and with a focus on applying the authentic scientific method in many realms.
I think that a really good new topic that will come from this ....what defines a hate crime and what do people here think should define a hate crime and why. This is probably the reason for most of our disagreeement, Tim do you agree?
I may have a very low requirement for verbal abuse being a hate crime....part of that could be from coaching 3,000 K-12 kids at chess and teaching the importance of giving your opponent the utmost respect.....regardless of any chess aptitude disparities between them.
Will expand on my thoughts on "Hate Crime" in the next thread. We've beaten this one to death.