Gunter, Gunter, Gunter.

You say sheep, well some flocks are lead by wolves in sheep’s clothing.

You don’t know who “they” are. Why not ? Why do “they” want to control me ? To what gain ? Why would “they“ want to kill me off ?

come on, mcfarmer!  Everybody knows who "they" are. 

 If you want go exotic, you could name the UN, the "globalists",  the NWO types.

On a more basic level, you have big pharma   This is a trillion dollar business. We are already talking about booster shots for vaccines that we just got a few weeks ago. There are 7 bill people on this planet to be vaccinated.  

They want every human on this planet to be frightened, so that they can sell them their jabs.... over and over again.

And, as we are seeing right now, the governments of many countries are enjoying having unparalleled control over their people. They can shut down businesses as they please. They can lock people up as the please. In some countries they already have Gestapo-like agencies that come into peoples' homes to check whether the residents are compliant.

It's like "1984"

The item that brings hope back into our hearts, is the fact that this graph of India shows us that the virus can be beat without vaxx.

Unfortunately, few people will be aware of it. The MSM most certainly wont make an issue out of it.

Gunter,

Man, you are really scaring me. Your obsession on this has become neurotic, paranoid and delusional.

 Some of the graphs and studies that you use, that you think are proving your junk science.........actually support the exact opposite, instead of what your mind and source is telling you that they show.

Gunter: "One of the slogans we hear so often from our Covid propaganda machine is the statement

“The vaxx has saved millions of lives. Hurry up and get vaccinated”

I have often wondered, how they can prove this. How can they prove that a person who was vaccinated in March, would be dead today, had he not taken the jab?

Well they can’t, but they whip out charts that show the general trend, like the one below. It clearly shows the virus being defeated..... thanks to the vaxx, of course,…. right? (never mind that the cases started plummeting, when the vaxx was barely available)"

Clearly the vaxx saved millions of lives... right?

metmike:

1. Who is saying that the vax saved millions of lives in the first 7 months, since it started? Source please.  Eventually it will be millions based on the irrefutable and authentic science regarding the protection we know with absolute certainty that's being gifted to the people smart enough to get vaccinated. 

2. Your graph above,  shows a peak in daily COVID cases in  January followed by a plunge after that which lasted into around June...........just past the end point of the graph. 

3. A plot of the actual vaccinations from that period below, shows them starting in mid December and rapidly climbing in the months after that(plateauing in recent weeks).... exactly when the incidence of COVID was going down rapidly during the entire time that vaccinations increased. 

According to you, this is proof that vaccinations don't save lives? Maybe you have graph reading dyslexia (-: 

If COVID INCREASED during that period, the data would support your silly, unscientific and dangerous position but the complete opposite happened. You are proving  yourself exactly wrong in the United States.

COVID vaccine/shots up = Daily COVID rates down     

Give me a break if you actually want people to  think that extremely high COVID rates that were peaking naturally early in that period were not massively helped to drop MUCH, MUCH faster because of the  vaccinations. The data shows that is exactly what happened. Your data for the US shows you to be exactly wrong.

BTW, I have been following this exact data on an almost daily basis going back to March 2020 and updating that data here on a regular basis. The benefits of the vaccine are crystal clear to anybody actually following the objective data.

Why do you continue to embarrass yourself on this topic, proving yourself wrong in your own thread. I used YOUR GRAPH to show how you are wrong. 

You are really scaring us Gunter. Your brain and intelligence has been stolen by anti government, anti Fauci anti Vaxx propaganda. 

This really bothers me that you and others have been targeted and used like this for their political agenda.

You should be  much less concerned about the ones trying to take control in other realms and much, much more concerned about the ones that have already taken control of..............YOUR BRAIN on COVID and things like the fake election steal!

Covid: First round of US vaccinations to begin on Monday

 December 12, 2020

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55289726

you seem to be missing the point of this thread.

Graph one shows a dramatic decline in infections. During the same time, vaxx was distributed.

Graph two shows a dramatic decline in infections. This country hardly had any vaxx.

You assume that the decline in the US  was caused by the vaxx.  This assumption has merit, considering the timing of the decline and the availability of vaxx  

India experienced a rapid decline also, with only minute use of vaxx.

India's example raises the very reasonable argument that quite possibly the decline in the US was a natural event that would have happened regardless of the presence of vaxx

in view of the India sample, the statement that the vaxx has saved lives, is an assumption, not a proven fact.

Gunter do not take this as fact because no one knows but have read that India early in the fight used much more ivermectin and hydo. These treatments may have helped, they surely did as they helped in many cases.

Gunter,

Again, your own graphs prove you wrong.

The reason for the massive COVID  surge in India in the Spring and the many thousands of deaths was exactly as you stated.....India did not have many vaccinations.

If India had a higher vaccination rate, like the US, they would not have suffered thru this.

You seriously don’t see this?

Fact: Lack of vaccinations in India CAUSED the spike in COVID. Of course any natural spike higher like that  is going to peak and drop on its own........after killing a massive amount of people like it did in a India!

You don’t see that?

Your 2nd graph shows what happens when a country hasn’t built up enough herd immunity with vaccinations .....or infections.

You seriously don’t see that?pulation 

There are 2 ways to achieve herd immunity.

1. Vaccinate and minimize infections/deaths

2. Infect the population with widespread disease and maximize deaths with a massive toll/suffering.

Your sources and personal attempts to try to apply absurd interpretations of data using junk/anti science have now discovered a brand new set of physical laws in science using tunnel vision.....called Gunter science.

It pains me to see you like this Gunter.....and losing the critical thinking skills that once defined you.

Please try to Stop letting them control your ability to process information accurately. I’m your friend, not your adversary....and an objective, non political scientist.

Anybody reading this.......if you have not been vaccinated.......please use authentic science and be smart....get vaccinated ASAP!

You seem to be forgetting that India was hit by the Delta…. a variant that highly vaccinated countries are struggling with right now  (no need to go again into the issue of the vaxx not working very well on the Delta).

You assume that India would have had less of a problem, had they been vaccinated. It’s an assumption. There is no proof for it.

At the same time, you are ignoring/avoiding the simple point I made in the original post…

In India, the virus came, and it is subsiding without vaxx

(today's 6.4% vaccination rate is insignificant)

just released...

for Delta,, Pfizer efficacy is 39%

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-07/23/c_1310078578.htm

I am starting to wonder, what the efficacy of Orange Juice would be  (just kidding)

EDITED:

but it's still 88% for hospitalizations

"You assume that India would have had less of a problem, had they been vaccinated. It’s an assumption. There is no proof for it.

At the same time, you are ignoring/avoiding the simple point I made in the original post…

In India, the virus came, and it is subsiding without vaxx

(today's 6.4% vaccination rate is insignificant)"

No proof?

Of course there is massive proof all over the planet and with countless decades of vaccinations and with authentic science. YOU choose to use Gunter science instead of  the reams and dozens of threads/posts of authentic science that I've  provide here to disprove Gunter science EVERY TIME.

How about another example for us metmike?

Gunter science says: 

In India, the virus came, and it is subsiding without vaxx

But it fails to mention what the toll was to get to that point:

India's Pandemic Death Toll Estimated At About 4 Million: 10 Times The Official Count

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co

metmike: Let me repeat the authentic, everybody's science that I stated above.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/72685/#72702

"Your 2nd graph shows what happens when a country hasn’t built up enough herd immunity with vaccinations .....or infections.

You seriously don’t see that? 

There are 2 ways to achieve herd immunity.

1. Vaccinate and minimize infections/deaths

2. Infect the population with widespread disease and maximize deaths with a massive toll/suffering."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

India clearly went by #2 and that's the one that you continue to advocate as a reasonable even preferred alternative to #1. 

Absurdly, your exact graph and example PROVE how horrible #2 is but your brain processes it as something to spin as good because it got herd immunity by using unimaginable pain, suffering and death. 

Gunter paraphrased: "Hey everybody, look here, its just like I've been saying..... herd immunity in India without the vaccine. Told you I was right............oh.... just ignore the 4,000,000 people that had to die, most in a brief period of time with the most unimaginable pain, suffering and death that anybody has ever experienced in India or most places in history. 

Now you are talking about 4 million dead in India

Here are 3 (of many) official counts

1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105
2. https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-maps-and-cases/
3. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

all 3 sources have similar numbers….

USA 626,000deaths,   India 421,117 deaths

And let’s not forget that India has a population almost 4 times that of the USA

here it is per million…

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

USA  852.     India  308

These are the official numbers. 

However, I do see an article where some people claim that the India death toll is 10 times more.

India has large swatches of rural areas. It is quite possible that these areas don’t have the medical facilities we have here in the US… which may have caused higher fatality numbers and less accurate reporting.

Some people in the US have also claimed that US numbers are significantly higher than the official numbers.

However, those are all guesses without scientific backing.

And more importantly, these comments have absolutely nothing to do with my original post. They are skirting the issue.

My main point was

The numbers in the US are on the decline (thanks to the vaxx, as some people claim),   and the numbers in India are also on the decline…without vaxx.

There is a clear-cut message in this simple comparison.

.. and it should make people at least think

Gunter,

Please forget what the actual number is and just look at the graph.

It went way up really fast in the Spring for exactly the element that you are using ALMOST NOBODY WAS VACCINATED and killed alot of people because they were not vaccinated. 

Those were mostly unnecessary deaths.

Using your new number today:

Gunter: EDITED:

but it's still 88% for hospitalizations"

I note that you conveniently left out the entire statement...............let me help you there:

"However, the effectiveness of the vaccine in preventing severe coronavirus disease in Israel is currently estimated at 91.4 percent, and in preventing COVID-19 hospitalization,at 88 percent."

This suggests that OVER 91.4% of those deaths in India(whatever number you want to use) did not have to happen if they were all vaccinated.

No proof?

Egads. There is 100 times more conclusive proof for any objective mind to know the authentic science, which I have provided a dozen times already.

Gunter science even proves itself blatantly wrong with the evidence that it uses to prove itself. 

This would be like me proving to you that it didn't rain yesterday..................by showing you my rain gauge with 1.5 inches of water in it and saying that it was from the irrigation system in a place that doesn't even have an irrigation system.

Are you not even realizing that Gunter science that gets all the weighting on  the anti vax  sites is being totally exposed for its fraudulence here because it has not been able to stand up to authentic science..................even one time!

This is like the absurd fake election steal...............didn't matter after dozens of false allegations failed and proved that the allegations were actually the fraud...the believers use faith and treat it like a religion.

Maybe I should call this Gunter, anti science religion?

Again, for all readers. If not vaccinated, please be smart and get vaccinated ASAP to keep COVID from spreading as fast....help crush COVID. 

There is no point in continuing this debate. The conversation always comes back to “the vaxx cut our numbers down, the vaxx saves lives (of course, science can’t tell us how many lives have been saved), and therefore, lives would have been saved in India, had they been vaxxed”

The main point was never addressed. How was it possible that the numbers went down in India without having the vaxx? how is it possible that we, as a vaccinated nation, have a higher death toll per capita, than a country that is not vaxxed?

However, there is something in one of your other replies that does demand a response…..

you wrote “No proof?Of course there is massive proof all over the planet and with countless decades of vaccinations and with authentic science. YOU choose to use Gunter science instead of  the reams and dozens of threads/posts of authentic science that I've  provide…”

With all due respect, this comment sounds like it’s coming from the establishment’s propaganda machine.

Massive proof? Countless decades of vaccination with authentic science?

Now you are starting to worry me, metmike!  Where have you been???.

There is no Covid vaccine!!!If there was a Covid vaccine, you would not hear a beep from me.

We have Covid DNA therapy, labelled by the establishment as “vaccine”, so that the public would accept it easier . There is a world of difference.!!!

There are no decades of experience. The Covid mRNA shots are new. We are in the testing phase. Testing should be complete in 2-3 years. We are the guinea pigs.

Unfortunately, we are being deceived by those in the lead. They make it look as if taking the vaxx was as simple and as safe as a flu shot, ignoring (and hiding from us) the problems these shots have already caused, and the problems they could cause in the future. Of course they have to do so, or nobody would take the shot

However, there also is a large number of true experts in this field… people who do not have a hidden agenda…experts who care about humanity… experts who know more about this subject than our “talking heads”.

And these experts do know what these mRNA shots can do to us.

Quite frankly, I rather believe their opinions, than the “science” coming from institutions that told their doctors to commit fraud.

The only defense the other side has, to counter the opinions of these experts, is to call their opinions ‘misinformation”, ” B.S”, etc

I don’t care if other people call the opinions of these experts cr*p…. I don’t care if they rather believe what the establishment tells them.

That’s their problem,

But let the People of the US at least make their own decisions.

No need to go into the risks and dangers of DNA manipulation. It’s a big subject that deserves its own thread some day.

"The main point was never addressed. How was it possible that the numbers went down in India without having the vaxx? how is it possible that we, as a vaccinated nation, have a higher death toll per capita, than a country that is not vaxxed?"

metmike: For the 3rd time, in just this thread...... the numbers went down in India because of number 2 below:

++++++++++++++++++++++=

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/72685/#72709

"Your 2nd graph shows what happens when a country hasn’t built up enough herd immunity with vaccinations .....or infections.

You seriously don’t see that? 

There are 2 ways to achieve herd immunity.

1. Vaccinate and minimize infections/deaths

2. Infect the population with widespread disease and maximize deaths with a massive toll/suffering."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

India clearly went by #2 and that's the one that you continue to advocate as a reasonable even preferred alternative to #1. 

Absurdly, your exact graph and example PROVE how horrible #2 is but your brain processes it as something to spin as good because it got herd immunity by using unimaginable pain, suffering and death. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==

Why does the US have a higher death toll than some unvaccinated countries?

Again this has been answered more than once and is actually shown by Gunter's own graphs........most of those deaths happened BEFORE the benefits of the vaccinations kicked in. 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/72685/#72696

Why do you keep asking the same questions that have been answered before or are already shown on your own graphs?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No proof? 

Let's just use Gunter's link instead of the many dozens of others out there:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/72685/#72707

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-07/23/c_1310078578.htm

"However, the effectiveness of the vaccine in preventing severe coronavirus disease in Israel is currently estimated at 91.4 percent, and in preventing COVID-19 hospitalization,at 88 percent."

Your statements argue against your own evidence.

In many cases, all I need to do is copy the exact stuff you provided and just apply the correct interpretation.

"There is no point in continuing this debate."  

metmike: You've  said that before.............. to make post after post after post of Gunter's anti science, anti government COVID religion. 

Will booster shots be needed?

Almost for sure. Why wouldn't they be? I'll be first in line to get mine and I just got the first flu shot in my life in 2020.

What caused me to suddenly do this?

Studying the authentic science of vaccinations after COVID became a pandemic.

"Now you are starting to worry me, metmike!  Where have you been???.

There is no Covid vaccine!!!If there was a Covid vaccine, you would not hear a beep from me.

We have Covid DNA therapy, labelled by the establishment as “vaccine”, so that the public would accept it easier . There is a world of difference.!!!"

metmike: Often, when we don't understand the science behind something, disinformation can be used to scare us about it. 

Maybe this will help you Gunter(OK, probably not but maybe others will learn something):

Gene therapy avenues and COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41435-021-00136-6

Typically, vaccines have one of the following forms: inactivated or live attenuated viruses, spike proteins or genetic materials (DNA or RNA) able to upregulate viral spike proteins when uptaken by the host’s cells. While each approach has its pros and cons, mRNA-based vaccines possess unique facets not available in the other approaches. The main mechanism of mRNA vaccine is illustrated in Fig. 1.

Both mRNA vaccines are administered intramuscularly. Following the injection, lipid nanoparticles approach the cells and release mRNA inside the cytoplasmic space to encode a full-length mutated SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein to be present at the out surface of the cells. The human immune system recognizes the spike protein and identifies it as a foreign body. Thus, antibodies are generated to fight the protein. Copies of the generated antibodies will be stored in the body to fight any potential COVID-19 infection in the future. Both vaccines are being given in two different jabs three to four weeks apart.

How the Delta variant upends assumptions about the coronavirus

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-delta-variant-upends-assumptions-about-coronavirus-2021-07-26/