Key Points
metmike: The science contintues to be crystal.....CRYSTAL clear. Getting vaccinated is very safe and results in massive protection from severe cases and death.
The Delta variant is twice as contagious, all the more reason to be vaccinated.
Some people vaccinated WILL get COVID. This is expected. The vaccine protection is still very powerful for those people.
COVID August 17, 2021, How long will we go higher?
Started by metmike - Aug. 2, 2021, 10:24 p.m.
On a related note... Of interest is the tone of the coverage vs that of a year ago.
But who coulda seen that coming.
A year ago, the republicans were for the vaccine because it was being pushed by Trump and the discussion was often about how quickly it would get here to help save us from COVID.
The democrats were skeptical because Trump was pushing it and said that it wouldn't be safe and would not get it if Trump was the one that told them to get vaccinated.
Now, it's totally flipped around 180 degrees..........after over 4 billion shots and solid proof that the vaccine is safe and works to protect MOST from severe infections and death.
The democrats are now FOR getting vaccinated.
The republicans are now for personal freedoms........to choose NOT to get vaccinated.
What changed so much for each party to flip?
The person in the oval office giving the advise is from the opposite party and the one sided, media political sources that tell their viewers/readers what they should think have done the major 180.
FOX had a nurse from NC on yesterday that quit her job, instead of getting vaccinated.
Tucker made her out to be a patriotic martyr standing up for her God given rights as a US citizen and great example of somebody that understands the risk.
He kept repeating, that "25% of the health care workers are refusing to get vaccinated"and "what do they know that we don't know!"
So he interviewed this lady as one of the people that knows what the rest of us don't know and asked what she knows that caused her to not get vaccinated.
She went into this speal about dedicating her life to helping other people in the medical community and other things related to her mindset but each time it came down to what she knows about the vaccine(that we don't know), her response was the total opposite of knowing something.
The entire reason she refuses to get vaccinated, in fact is because she knows nothing. She said that we just don't know enough about the vaccine. In other words, she is totally ignoring ALL the data about what we DO know, with extraordinarily high confidence based on massive data and science.
2 billion shots.............proven safety, proven effective in protecting most from severe infections and death. This is what almost all the data and science shows..............in spite of those who cherry pick outlier anomalies and twist the interpretation, to get it to represent the science, when it's a minuscule example.
She had zero data or evidence to support her refusing to get the shot. Not a shred of data........It was all based on her NOT knowing and refusing to become informed by objectively reading the science and data and choosing to be skeptical/afraid of something she said that she didn't understand.
So she proved that it's the other way around. Instead of what the healthcare workers know that we don't, the reality, at least with this nurse is what the vaccinated know that the healthcare workers refusing to get vaccinated.........refuse to learn or accept.
This is exactly the totally flawed line of thinking displayed by this group of people and Tucker is one of the leading sources(with the biggest following) pushing this junk science/DISinformation:
Why do Covid frontline workers refuse to be vaccinated ?
28 responses |
Started by GunterK - Aug. 5, 2021, 1:02 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/73179/
Why are doctors refusing the mRNA jab?
17 responses |
Started by GunterK - Aug. 10, 2021, 3:24 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/73449/
I guess you are seeing different news than I am.
BTW, being for personal choice is an old tradition here in the states. One that is obviously becoming obsolete. One can support the vaccine and personal choice at the same time. Think about it.
And you really need to stop claiming vaccines have been proven abdsolutely safe. They simply have not been around long enough to have been proven absolutely safe. You can't discuss long term efects until a long term has passed
What I was refering to was the way the numbers are being presented now, vs a year ago.
heard an explanation today on the radio of why the peak at this time. We have delayed peak, no other reason. Last winter we had no other virus round, We delayed that peak til now. Also new study from England and kids under 12 with masks had a higher incidence than no masks. Also more evidence that kids that get infected are building immunity faster and actually need to get a slight infection every year or two to continue building.
Thanks Tim, yes, I totally get what you meant....sorry for not commenting on that aspect.
The MSM and democrats used COVID to beat Trump in the election. It worked too.
They are not blaming Biden like they did Trump for the actual vaccine for sure.
I was referring to the vaccination......which is now with us and 100 times more important because it's something huge that we can do, so my brain was focused on the importance of that........sorry if I ignored your great point.
Many of the same people that want to stay wide open and not wear masks, ironically are also against forced vaccinations and 30% are refusing to ever get vaccinated.
Crazy logic.
The one thing that we can do to allow more freedom of choice with masks and restrictions.......is to all get vaccinated........by an extremely wide margin.
It makes zero common sense in the worst pandemic of our life time, 600,000+ people killed in the last 1.5 years, with a new deadly surge still going up, for people to say "we think that everybody that wants to, should be able to do what they want and not follow any COVID rules because it's their God given right!".
Just imagine if everybody had that attitude and applied it.
The deaths would be at least 10 times higher.
Hey metmike, you can't prove that!
Right and I can't prove that jumping out of a 5th story window and landing on concrete is going to injure you without doing it. But the no brainer physics, science and common sense to an objective mind make it obvious.
With regards to long term safety, there is nothing medically that suggests side effects beyond short term would be a factor. That also makes no sense medically. Because we haven't gone long term and not proven it? Again, goes back to the 5th story window anolagy.
This is how the vaccine works
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/73449/#73590
Thanks mcfarm,
You made several points. The last one makes sense and has been proven with regards to germ and virus free environments keeping not giving our immune systems any needed exercise.
Use it or lose it. Like lifting weights for instance. If you want to bench press 200 lbs and don't do any weightlifting, when spotters take 200 lbs, off the bench rack and let go of it with you trying to control it .....it's going to crush you.
If you work out the muscles needed to increase your benching strength for a long period with training........they/you will get stronger and you can build up the needed strength. Your immune system responds way quicker than that.
Same sort of principle with your immune system but in a different type realm. This is actually part of why, after people in our house get a virus or cold, we don't just keep giving it back to each other and after recovering from being sick, we are often much less likely to get sick from other things because our immune system is revved up and ready to kick the ars of any invader.....not just the one that it defeated.
With regards to masks or no masks, that sounds like somebody just trying to make a case for no masks and not thinking about their logic.........because if masks supposedly protected you so well that they filtered out all the bad things, including those your immune system needs to exercise.......then you are making a really strong case that masks work TOO GOOD.
They can't NOT work well and work TOO well at the same time.
I am totally confused about the point of delaying a peak until now.
We peaked in January, a month or 2 earlier than the regular seasonal flu peak. Vaccinations for a month, were not likely long enough to be a factor but it could just have been an early peak to the usual seasonal virus season.
We're soaring back higher now because the much more contagious Delta version is spreading and half the people are not vaccinated and it still infects SOME vaccinated people too but curbs the severity by something like a factor of 10. If the Delta version had emerged like this in the Winter, it's highly unlikely that COVID would have plunged in the Spring.
Of course there is uncertainty and each country has its own, individual rate and timing configuration. ....which is often completely out of sync with other countries.
You cannot legally, morally, ethically suport forced vaccinations. Particularly for a virus with a 98+% survival rate.
"You cannot legally, morally, ethically support forced vaccinations. Particularly for a virus with a 98+% survival rate."
1. Legally-no
2. Morally-yes
3. Ethically-yes
Don't take my word for it...........take it from the world's leader in morals/ethics.
Pope Francis-getting vaccine is act of love towards neighbor
4 responses |
Started by metmike - Aug. 18, 2021, 10:59 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/73810/
I happen to agree with him here but you and me don't determine the world of ethics/morals base on OUR opinions. The worlds leaders in that realm do and they are speaking out.
Using a 98% survival rate is a way to spin it as not that bad of a thing to be protected from. The reality is that it WOULD not maybe but WOULD save tens of thousands (maybe more) lives in the US.........compared to not forcing vaccination.
That's the main metric. Lives saved.
Do you agree with this Tim?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKMG7D4rxX4
Here's the entire speech
Do you agree with everything the Pope says? I sincerely doubt it.
If you want to trade the "experts quotes" on the moral/ethical debates of forcing people the inject a relatively new vaccine for a virus with a 98+% survival rate, I'll match you a dozen to one and have several to spare.
JFK's speech does not apply here and I will just about garantee he would not support forced injections.
Medical decisions have always been left to the individual, as they should be.
Guess we'll just have to disagree on this one Tim.
You brought up morals and ethics with regards to the vaccine and I think the pope is considered an authority in just that realm........and provided his crystal clear opinion and in fact, campaign to get people to get vaccinated for moral and ethical reasons.
You reject him.
I won't be able to top that with somebody above the pope because there isn't anybody I know of, unless you can tell us who YOU would .accept as the quintessential moral and ethical spokesperson for mankind.
On the legal part, I agree with you.
On Kennedy, no he couldn't have known or thought about COVID when making that statement so obviously I can't speak for him.
I am just applying the exact same principle to a different realm in 2021. There is nothing even close to being as powerful an act as getting vaccinated is for what people can do for their country right now......but maybe you know of some things.
It's also the exact same theme that the pope is promoting....to do it for our neighbors out of kindness and love for the,
All my neighbors live in the USA, and doing things to help fellow citizens makes this a much stronger country, especially when we all unite...both parties to win the war on COVID.
Do you agree with that?
I don't know how else to explain to you that medical treatment decisions, including an experimental vaccine are morally and ethically a decision left to the individual. That is all over medical ethics debates, everywhere.
You continue to argue for mandatory covid vaccinations, right? For a virus with a 98+% surnival rate. I want to be clear on that.
You appear to be certain that you know what's best for everyone, no matter what they think. I don't now how to debate that kind of thinking. But in the history of totalitarian government, that's the first rule.
Let's move on to debating mandatory sterilization and abortion. There are much more complelling arguments in support of that. For the good of the state, right?
But ya know what? Never mind.. Have a good one.
"You appear to be certain that you know what's best for everyone, no matter what they think. I don't now how to debate that kind of thinking. But in the history of totalitarian government, that's the first rule.
Let's move on to debating mandatory sterilization and abortion. There are much more complelling arguments in support of that. For the good of the state, right?"
Gosh Tim,
I made it crystal clear that my source(s) were the Pope and other moral/ethical leaders not me for determining morals and ethics. Nothing like doing the old straw man thing again to attack a position that I don't have.
If you want to bring SCIENCE into it, then that's my field to express myself but it was TIM that brought up the moral/ethics aspect, not metmike.
I'm totally against mandatory sterilization and mandatory abortion. Why would you bring them up on a discussion about vaccinations? They have zero to do with this and you are taking something that I am totally against, implying that I support things for the good of the state............ and using the old strawman trick so that you can attack it.
Sterilizing a person or forcing an abortion is not protecting people around you. Not even in the vicinity of the general area of protecting OTHER people. What gives on that?
OK, you wildly speculate that would be coming next if they make us get vaccinated.
Frankly, I'm MUCH MUCH more concerned about saving many thousands of real lives right now in this real world/country based on real science rather than wildly speculating that if we let the government force a really smart decision for a dang good reason on us, it some how equates to things totally unrelated in the speculative future that have no legit justification.
Oh, but there are great arguments to be made for the dangers to society with births in situations that are likely to produce violent criminals. Certinly far greater risk than from a virus with a 98+% survival rate. Once you have removed personal choice from the equation, all sorts of things become not only possible, but likely.
You cited the Pope as a "Moral" expert. He is nothing of the sort based on many of his statements, He is a demonstrated collectivist, or a person who values the good of the state over the good of the individual. In case you've forgotten, that's the exact opposite of what this country is supposed to be about. Something many have seem to forgotten and exactly what is bringing this country to it's inevitable downfall. But that's another debate.
Here's an article for the Journal of Medical Ethics.
Ethics of vaccine refusal | Journal of Medical Ethics (bmj.com)
Proponents of vaccine mandates typically claim that everyone who can be vaccinated has a moral or ethical obligation to do so for the sake of those who cannot be vaccinated, or in the interest of public health. I evaluate several previously undertheorised premises implicit to the ‘obligation to vaccinate’ type of arguments and show that the general conclusion is false: there is neither a moral obligation to vaccinate nor a sound ethical basis to mandate vaccination under any circumstances, even for hypothetical vaccines that are medically risk-free. Agent autonomy with respect to self-constitution has absolute normative priority over reduction or elimination of the associated risks to life. In practical terms, mandatory vaccination amounts to discrimination against healthy, innate biological characteristics, which goes against the established ethical norms and is also defeasible a priori.
Thanks Tim,
I appreciate the article on the ethics of vaccine refusal. The problem is that it costs $37 to actually read it.
Did you pay $37 and actually read it or did you search the internet to cut and paste something to find just to support what you are convinced of?
I can actually find dozens to support getting the vaccine for moral reasons but my point, that you are avoiding is WHO are the moral/ethical leaders in the world if not religious leaders. Do you think lawyers and politicians? Far right or far left internet sources? The MSM?
I continue to think that religious leaders, the biggest one, being the pope are considered the moral authority in our world and just want to know what sources that you think the world should use for leadership in that area.
I will also add, that its a lack of AUTHENTIC moral/ethical leadership in our world that is the downfall of society today. We get our direction on this from people like Nancy Pelosi or FOX news, that push POLITICAL ideologies, sold as morals/ethics.
This article is a good discussion about that(not just something to support my opinion about COVID vaccines but to understand THE REASONING for such a choice)
https://www.proquest.com/docview/1877770093?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true
This is an article written by a man that I greatly respected as a leader, playing this role.
The Role of the Religious Leader in the Development of Public Policy Policy
Here is an article that discusses both sides of the ethical/morality related to this issue from some medical experts.
https://www.sccm.org/Blog/June-2021/Ethical-Considerations-for-a-COVID-19-Vaccine-Mand
Again, to review my position, so it doesn't get mischaracterized.
My opinion is based on the authentic science(safety/effectiveness). It lines up with my personal ethics, but I concede that area to moral/ethical authorities. Since they and metmike line up, it provides additional support for this idea for me.
You disagree. Is it from not believing the science? If not, then who are the moral/ethical leaders that support your side. NOT legal. We agree that LEGALLY, mandating the vaccination is a losing cause. That means that metmike agrees with you LEGALLY. Please tell us this time who the world should be getting moral/ethical leadership from in other realms, not just the COVID vaccination.
Thanks
ODG.. I did not have to pay anything to read it. I copied/pasted the abstract. It's the freekin Journal Of Medical Ethics. The one doctors read and write. You want to go with the socialist pope to support your hoplessly flawd argument, go ahead. You're still terribly wrong..
The ONLY POINT is that you support mandatory vacciination and there is no legal, moral or ethical argument to suppport that position.
You want how many dozens of inteligent arguments against your flawed thinking? It doesn't matter. You've demonstrated that your "science" does not take rational argument into account.
From your article..
Mandate to vaccinate or nudge if there is no budge? COVID-19 vaccines remain a key weapon in the fight against the deadliest modern-day pandemic the world has seen. In this article, we summarize key facts and ethical considerations for healthcare organizations when considering a COVID-19 vaccine mandate for U.S. healthcare workers (HCW).
This is actually hilarious. "The DEADLIEST MODERN DAY PANDEMIC". The one with a 98+% rate of survival. Yeah, these are obvious "Scientists:" GUFFAW!!! I bet they buy the climate crisis too.
Good day.
No sense continuing a conversation like this.
Bye Bye
Talk to you later about something else.
The tone was harsh and I should apologize.
I'm just getting so tired of the way governments and people are treating all this. Assuming the data is correct, and that's a huge assumption, if you are healthy and take reasonable precautions, the risk is very low.
But that's not at all how it's being treated.
And it's ruining lives. We trashed the economy, ending the life work of many small businessmen. We are watching as governments shred our rights. SOme of us are willing supporters.
On personal level, the trip we are taking, cutting through Canada saves hours and miles. Used to be as easy as crossing the strreet. Now it's such a hassle, we decided to go around. Not a huge deal, but how stupid. We were not even going to get out of the RV.
My sister, who lives in Canada, had not seen her son, who lives in the U.S. for 18 months. Her husband and other kids could not travel with her so who knows when they'll see their brother/son?
My brother recently took a trip to Spain I won't even go into the nightmare he encountered trying to get back into his country. The story is long and painful.
He's recently retired as pastor of a church for decades. A large congregation from all walks of life. Many races, assorted socio-economic levels, political leanings, a peaceful and loving group. For decades. You know what tore them apart? The mask debate.
I could go on, but This has all reached a leve of stupidity that is trying my patience to a very high level.
No problemo Tim,
I understand the frustrations.