If you're healthy but unvaccinated you will get fired, but you should work if you test positive (and asymptomatic)
if you are waiting for big gov to make sense {esp during covid} you have a long wait ahead.
Let me help you out by explaining it.
1. The pandemic, which this month has had over double the cases of a year ago, now has MORE people seriously sick in the hospital from COVID than at any time during the entire pandemic.
2. We know that, by an extremely wide margin the best way to prevent severe sickness that results in going to the hospital is to get vaccinated. However, because many tens of millions of Americans refused to get vaccinated, believing MISinformation most of them, the majority of those in the hospital causing this crisis are unvaccinated. The policy to get vaccinated to prevent this crisis is still based on rock solid science.
3. But we had a crisis anyway because so many people refused to follow the science and the healthcare industry can't just tell sick people to stay home and die and it would be even worse if they decided that workers should not have to get vaccinated..........which is exactly why we have this crisis....people not getting vaccinated.
4. Because of the crisis, they must do something that will save the most lives, while causing the least amount of risk. This is obviously it. Workers with COVID but not likely contagious and wearing protective equipment working on mostly COVID PATIENTS in the hospitals. People that already have COVID are not going to get COVID from an asymptomatic person that has COVID.
5. Is it possible that a few people could get COVID from the health care worker that is asymptomatic in the hospital? Yes.
6. Is it a for sure thing that many hundreds to thousands of very sick people will not get the treatment they need because they don't have enough health care people right now, to take care of them (because so many people refused to get vaccinated)? Yes!
7. Are many dozens of hospitals and health care workers totally overwhelmed because of mostly unvaccinated people that are very sick? Yes.
Why in the world would people blame the policies designed to prevent this that failed because people refused to follow them instead of blaming the entire reason........ the tens of millions of people refusing to get vaccinated that would have absolutely prevented this?
But of course, we aren't allowed to call it the pandemic of the unvaccinated because some people are offended by the truth.
Here's a sample of the truth again in stone cold hard, indisputable data/facts:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/80126/
Sorry if it offends you. That tends to happen when you know that you're on the WRONG side of an issue and won't acknowledge it for ego or political reasons.
Of course they could just refuse to treat anybody that hasn't been vaccinated and tell them "It's your own fault".....then there would be tons of room in all the hospitals for all the other sick people.
But the ones trying to convince the people causing this pandemic to do the RIGHT thing are too compassionate to turn their backs on them after they did the WRONG thing and are suffering the consequences and causing many people around them, that did nothing wrong to suffer.
2. We know that, by an extremely wide margin the best way to prevent severe sickness that results in going to the hospital is to get vaccinated. However, because many tens of millions of Americans refused to get vaccinated, believing MISinformation most of them, the majority of those in the hospital causing this crisis are unvaccinated. The policy to get vaccinated to prevent this crisis is still based on rock solid science. Response: This has nothing to do with who we can get to help these people. Good Samaritans come in all shapes.
3. But we had a crisis anyway because so many people refused to follow the science and the healthcare industry can't just tell sick people to stay home and die and it would be even worse if they decided that workers should not have to get vaccinated..........which is exactly why we have this crisis....people not getting vaccinated. Response: I believe that people receiving care for this disease don’t care if the worker is vaccinated. They just need someone. Are we to not care for these people because they made a choice? Even if you think it is a wrong choice?
4. Because of the crisis, they must do something that will save the most lives, while causing the least amount of risk. This is obviously it. Response : So how does firing health care workers who have as much as 2 years experience with this disease help?
Workers with COVID but not likely contagious and wearing protective equipment working on mostly COVID PATIENTS in the hospitals. People that already have COVID are not going to get COVID from an asymptomatic person that has COVID. Response: So people with covid (asymptomatic) are not a risk because. “People that already have COVID are not going to get COVID from an asymptomatic person that has COVID”. I would say that if they already have covid that an unvaccinated person is not going to infect them. Your statement here is hypocritical.
5. Is it possible that a few people could get COVID from the health care worker that is asymptomatic in the hospital? Yes. Response; this contradicts : “People that already have COVID are not going to get COVID from an asymptomatic person that has COVID.”
6. Is it a for sure thing that many hundreds to thousands of very sick people will not get the treatment they need because they don't have enough health care people right now, to take care of them (because so many people refused to get vaccinated)? Yes! Response: So how does firing health care workers who have as much as 2 years experience with this disease help?
7. Are many dozens of hospitals and health care workers totally overwhelmed because of mostly unvaccinated people that are very sick? Yes. Response” So how does firing health care workers who have as much as 2 years experience with this disease help?
Why in the world would people blame the policies designed to prevent this that failed because people refused to follow them instead of blaming the entire reason........ the tens of millions of people refusing to get vaccinated that would have absolutely prevented this? Response: So how does firing health care workers who have as much as 2 years experience with this disease help? Are we to not care for these people because they made a choice? Even if you think it is a wrong choice? Also this is off point as the issue is where to get health care workers.
But of course, we aren't allowed to call it the pandemic of the unvaccinated because some people are offended by the truth. Response: This is off point
Sorry if it offends you. That tends to happen when you know that you're on the WRONG side of an issue and won't acknowledge it for ego or political reasons. Response; Off point again Edit: ad hominem
Of course they could just refuse to treat anybody that hasn't been vaccinated and tell them "It's your own fault".....then there would be tons of room in all the hospitals for all the other sick people. Response; we don't turn our backs on people because they made bad choices. In all my time as a firefighter we NEVER turned our back on anyone no matter what bad choices they made. but again, how does firing unvaccinated health care workers help?
But the ones trying to convince the people causing this pandemic to do the RIGHT thing are too compassionate to turn their backs on them after they did the WRONG thing and are suffering the consequences and causing many people around them, that did nothing wrong to suffer. Response; so i would just remind you of your desire to help Bill. The firing of unvaccinated heath care workers is just wrong and is helping to add to the hospital crises.
This is what happened in our community and our family
I am not here to put blame any place, just telling you what happened "here" and folks can decide what to do for them selves
Our county had very low infections and even lower hospitalization than the average for our province and also our country. I think we might have had 5 hospital covid deaths since the covid out break was even heard about, way back when?? If we had 20 in hospital at one time that was high, more often 10. Our county has a population of approx 250,000 citizens. I would think we are approx 75 % vaccinated but that is just a seat of the pants guess but from conversations, most are vaccinated, but certainly not everybody
Well all heck broke loose after Xmas. We were limited to 10 per household over the holidays and most followed the rules. Some had less than 10
I was exposed on Dec 26 found out on Dec 27 and took at a rapid test on Dec. 28. I tested postive, my wife tested negative. Symptoms started on Dec 29. Well the official testing facilities were over run with people wanting testing. However, due to symptoms and my age, I was able to get an official test on Dec. 30
Now back to when I tested postive on the rapid test, I immediately started calling to cancel all appointments until I got a handle on my covid testing and symptoms. Well golly gee: You would have thought I was a leper. Nobody wanted me any where close to their office, days of isolation be dammed. One receptionist told me not to book an appointment until I could show a negative test.
What?? I won't have a negative test for how long??? with these antibodies in my system but not to worry, everybody was about the same with me the leper
Well after I got confirmation of being postive from an official source, I started to read the rules for our county on days of isolation etc. and then trying to book appointments after my isolation was over. By now folks had read up a bit on the rules [This is in medical offices, mind you where you would think they know this stuff, but no, they don't] Possibly because our infection rate was so low in our county, most had no infectious patients to worry about.
Well all is good and I have my appointments all re-booked and am not the leper I was at one time
Now a word about my/our covid
The men in our family all got covid, except one, one female tested positive and two negative, we were in close contact but some tested positive and some negative. Testing was done about three days after exposure
Symptoms ranged from cough, head ache, synus congestion and hoarse voice. Nobody was affected any more than a bad cold. Some went to work, that tested negative, and the positive stayed home
We were all double vaccinated and some had the booster, some did not.
I am here to tell you, from my experience, if that is all to catching covid, once you have been vaccinated, then there is no worry.
Bring it on and then all filled up with antibodies. I am symptom free, as is all the family. It will be some time before covid is a threat to our family and the hope is that by then covid will have run it's coarse and finally nothing but a bad cold. The unvaccinated may not have to worry as the covid mutates to a weaker strain and nobody has any worries. That is my personal hope and belief.
The worst part was being treated like a leper when I needed medical attention and trying to convince folks there is a reason for so many days of isolation and NO I won't ever bring you a negative test result any time soon. We actually had to find another medical person who understood positive and negative test results, for one situation.. Everybody else was able to figure out the isolation rules and then book appointments
Sorry you had to go thru all that Wayne.
Hopefully, with the Omicron being much less severe and more contagious, we can hit herd immunity quickly and have the worst it be over with.
Just too bad we had to lose 100,000+ Americans in 2021 because they refused to get vaccinated. That's a lot of people that died that didn't need to.
cutworm,
If you didn't/don't get it by now..........you never will and never wanted to.
It's more than being compassionate to those not smart enough to get vaccinated.
You just can't bring back the lives of 100,000 dead Americans that did not have to die from COVID if they'd been vaccinated.
Too late now man.
Hopefully the Omicron will bail the stubborn, mostly political anti science mindsets out of additional damage and harms way by being much less severe than the Delta and providing herd immunity at much less cost to the unvaccinated than the Delta was.
Then, I can already see it now, they will be shouting from the rooftops.........."see, we told you so".
Sadly, the ones buried underground said the same thing before it cost them their lives. Many of them finally acknowledged the truth in the end but at the cost of their lives.
90,000 US COVID-19 deaths could have been prevented
Started by metmike - Jan. 9, 2022, 4:23 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/80126/
Somehow, the debate rages on. The objective data, statistics, evidence and authentic science showed one side was obliterated in the debate/discussion in 2021.
If it were football, the score would have been 72-0 and the game is over but the team with 0, continues to want a 5th quarter, behind 72-0 and pretending they can score 73 points to win.
so the question remains, how does firing healthcare workers help the health care crisis? They can only hurt themselves.
" “People that already have COVID are not going to get COVID from an asymptomatic person that has COVID.”
Like I said cutworm, you will never get it no matter how many times it’s explained.
For you, it will never be the health care workers fault for refusing to get an extremely low risk shot which gives them And people around them scientifically proven protection.
It’s always the ones requiring them to get the protection as part of their jobs based on indisputable science.....not the fault of the anti science workers rejecting the very reasonable request to make the work place safer because politics is more important to them than their jobs or helping sick people.
That’s what a brainwash can do.......mess up your critical thinking and priorities.
Ironically, NOT getting vaccinated takes the mot freedoms away and getting vaccinated maximizes freedoms.
But it been twisted like a pretzel to brainwash tens of millions of people to think that its the other way around.
And they will never see it, no matter how obvious and no matter them seeing 100,000 people in front of them die because of it.
"You'll be more free when you do exactly what we tell you to do".
Funny stuff MM :-)
mm,
I look at the choice of vac/no vac as a freedom {in a very basic sense) analogous to any freedom we may have protected by engaging in wars.
Its a citizens (non-military) effort to serve our country. And ,yes. as in war there is collateral damage.
I am in the camp of Vacination-Good, but our freedom trumps.
Simply saying,
John
"You'll be more free when you do exactly what we tell you to do".
Funny stuff MM :-)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tim,
You know dang well I didn't state that.
Let me help you on the rules for using quotations. Here and everywhere else in the universe.... since I just provided a lesson 2 months ago on a thread that your were there to learn from regarding the proper use, when quoting somebody.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/77928/#78009
"The concept of quoting is pretty straightforward. If you use quotation marks, you must use precisely the same words as the original, even if the language is vulgar or the grammar is incorrect."
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/77928/#78020
http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2011/01/what-are-risks-of-misquoting.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
metmike: I realize that you did it to try to mischaracterize my position in order to attack it like you often do. We have discussed doing that previously too.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/69389/#69492
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly ...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/69389/#69493
We are all about learning here...............so let's capitalize on this opportunity to learn something new.
https://examples.yourdictionary.com/straw-man-fallacy-examples.html
Of the many types of logical fallacies, the straw man fallacy is particularly common in political debates and in discussions over controversial topics. The basic structure of the argument consists of Person A making a claim, Person B creating a distorted version of the claim (the “straw man”), and then Person B attacking this distorted version in order to refute Person A’s original assertion.
Often, the distorted interpretation is only remotely related to the original claim. The opposing argument may focus on just one aspect of the claim, take it out of context or exaggerate it. The straw man argument, in this way, is an example of a red herring. It’s meant to distract from the real issue being discussed and is not a logically valid argument. The best way to understand this phenomenon is with some straw man fallacy examples.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#71262
https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/
"A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. Essentially, the person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent’s stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn’t necessarily support.
For example, if someone says “I think that we should give better study guides to students”, a person using a strawman might reply by saying “I think that your idea is bad, because we shouldn’t just give out easy A’s to everyone”.
Because strawman arguments are frequently used in discussions on various topics, it’s important to understand them. As such, in the following article you will learn more about strawman arguments, see examples of how they are used, and understand what you can do in order to counter them successfully."
metmike: Tim, I'm not here to change your mind on anything. You don't have to believe any data(that you call unreliable) or facts if you don't want to. However I will still show the facts, data, truth and evidence. You will also be held accountable for distorting those facts, statements and opinions that you don't like.
You are strongly encouraged to show facts, data and evidence to support your case instead of resorting to the tactics above. ...........and at least try to learn something about something here.
MM, this is your statement from above.
Ironically, NOT getting vaccinated takes the mot freedoms away and getting vaccinated maximizes freedoms.
When coupled with your ardent support of assorted mandates "to save lives", I don't think I have been mischaractarizing you at all. I think my above statement sums up your beliefs concisley.
Tim,
You don’t get to redefine the accepted use of quotes.
You also don’t get to tell people what their position is so that you can attack it.
Not if you are honest and want credibility in objective, adult discussions.
I apologize if I misunderstood.
You stated Vaccines make us more free.
You have strongly supported vacccine mandates.
I assumed then, that you felt the forced vaccines would make us more free.
What did I miss?
Now pretending that you didn't completely make up a quote from me and didn't mischaracterize my position.........that's what you missed Tim.
That's your MO whenever somebody disagrees with you.
Since you have, what is a vast majority of far right posters who agree with your views, you know that they will agree with anything that you say and anyway you go about communicating it and you don't have to use authentic data, facts, evidence or truths.
As stated before, you think when we are at this stage that its still a winnable debate for you every time. I'm long past making the relevant points that were initially made and often repeated and into the analysis of your behavior stage.
Don't you even notice that?
Hi cutworm,
Thank you for your post/link. I am addressing your original post in this thread, not the lengthy discussion following it. I only want to add my (worthless) 2 cts to your post.
The problems the mandates would cause were quite obvious, when the mandates were first enforced. If I am not mistaken, I posted about a hospital in NJ that had to close their whole maternity ward, because too many of its staff were terminated for refusing the vaxx.
This bit of information alone should have made people think. It was easy to foresee that any kind of a rush-to-hospital could overwhelm the understaffed hospitals… be it the flu, the Covid, or anything else.
So, now this has materialized…
Perfectly healthy, uninfected nurses are now at home, unemployed, while infected nurses are roaming the hospitals. I can’t see how anybody can defend, or make excuses for this situation.
The comment that these infected nurses are only working with already infected patients is a meaningless defense.These nurses will eat at the cafeteria, they will use the bathrooms, they will use the rooms where employees gather or have lockers, they will walk through the hallways..
These infected nurses are not only a threat to patients, they are even more so a threat to their co-workers. Quite possibly, these hospitals could turn into hot-spot spreader locations.
Should you find yourself in a hospital, who would you rather have as your nurse? A fit, healthy, uninfected, but unvaxxed nurse…. or a vaxxed, walking Covid spreader?
This is insanity.
If I was running the show, I would send the infected nurses home, and ask the fired, healthy, uninfected nurses to come back to work….
But no, they can’t do this… for political reasons.
Unvaxxed people are blamed for causing these hospitals to be overwhelmed. Well, then bring those healthy, fired nurses back to work, and there may not be an understaffing problem.
Keeping healthy nurses at home, and replacing them with infected ones is insanity. It will cost lives.
This situation is not based on medical reasoning…this is not based on logic… this is not about caring for sick people… this is pure politics
"Keeping healthy nurses at home, and replacing them with infected ones is insanity. It will cost lives."
Rich coming from the guy leading the charge of MISinformation at MarketForum in 2021 with many hundreds of Misinformation posts trying to convince people to NOT get vaccinated because according to you, the vaccines kill more people than COVID.
90,000 US COVID-19 deaths could have been prevented
Started by metmike - Jan. 9, 2022, 4:23 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/80126/
There is a message from me in your mail box Gunter.