metmike: Despite my emphatic personal Pro Life position and being against abortion(that I can prove is ethically correct using biology/science) I find this interpretation coming from a religious leader abusing his power as very offensive.
The bishop in this case is an OUTLIER, actually going against the Catholic Church, (Catholic bishops recent discernment on the issue) and Pope Francis and is imposing his own personal interpretation of Catholic Doctrine.
Correction: It appears as if the Catholic Bishops voted in favor of this.
This is a Catholic BISHOP. He is held to a much higher standard that obligates him to publicly represent the objective Catholic Church, which is Universal and welcomes everybody and is based on rules, not set by individuals like this bishop that abuses his position to punish somebody that stands for political and moral things that he doesn't like.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/politics/catholic-bishops-communion-biden-abortion/index.html
metmike: This bishop has committed a grievous mortal sin and will rot in hell for eternity (-: totally kidding!
Actually, it just shows how dang flawed ALL human beings are. No matter how pious or educated or what political, religious or scientific side we stand for.........we all have many cognitive biases and the best that we can do to maximize our discernment of knowledge/information is to see our biases, so that we can adjust the perspective that skews how we see everything so that it dials in those biases and steers us in a more unbiased direction.
nancy Pelosi has never, not once in her meaningless life, seen how most people live. As she would never volunteer and could care less as long as she lives like a queen......I hereby sentence her to spend the entirety of the balance of her life to service of the poor, the minority's, the ill, anyone in need, those she will serve every day til she is gone. Her estate then will b liquidated and every penny shall go back to the American people, those very people she stole it from. This will serve as such a shock to the balance of our crooks in congress {both sides of the aisle} that they will start to behave as decent humans. Not only that but both Clintons will come forth and confess all sins and be exiled to a frozen island.
The bishop in this case is doing exactly what cannon law demands of him.
Canon 915, one of the canons in the 1983 Code of Canon Law of the Latin Church of the Catholic Church, forbids the administration of Holy Communion to those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared or who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin:
Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.[1]
The general rule of canon law is that "sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them";[10] and "any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion".[11] Canon 915 not only permits the ministers to deny Holy Communion to certain classes of people, but actually obliges them to deny it to those classes of people.[12]
A memorandum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on "Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion", signed by its Prefect CardinalJoseph Ratzinger and published in July 2004, declared that, if a Catholic politician's formal cooperation in "the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia" becomes manifest by "consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws", the politician's pastor is obliged to instruct the politician about the Church's teaching and inform him that he should not present himself for Holy Communion as long as the objective situation of sin (regardless of whether subjective guilt exists or is absent) persists, warning him that, if he does present himself in those circumstances, he will be refused.
The Discipline Regarding the Denial of Holy Communion to Those Obstinately Persevering in Manifest Grave Sin
Most Rev. Raymond L. Burke
Archbishop of St. Louis
The discussion among the Bishops uncovered a fair amount of serious confusion regarding the discipline of can. 915. First of all, the denial of Holy Communion was repeatedly characterized as the imposition of a canonical penalty, when, in reality, it plainly articulates the responsibility of the minister of Holy Communion, ordinary or extraordinary, to deny Holy Communion to those who obstinately persevere in manifest grave sin [1]. The denial of Holy Communion can be the effect of the imposition or declaration of the canonical penalties of Excommunication and Interdict (cf. cann. 1331 §1, 2º; and 1332), but there are other cases in which Holy Communion must be denied, apart from any imposition or declaration of a canonical penalty, in order to respect the holiness of the Sacrament, to safeguard the salvation of the soul of the party presenting himself to receive Holy Communion, and to avoid scandal.
Given the wide range of circumstances involved in arriving at a prudential judgment on a matter of this seriousness, we recognize that such decisions rest with the individual bishop in accord with the established canonical and pastoral principles. Bishops can legitimately make different judgments on the most prudent course of pastoral action. [2]
Thanks cutworm,
I see your point. The pope, leader of the Magesterium, who changes canon laws with his rulings/ positions sometimes, is against denying politicians holy communion because of their position on pro choice/abortions being the womans choice.
He authorized Biden to continue to receive communion.
Other leaders/Bishops feel they should deny communion to anyone that promotes abortion because its a grave sin.
This includes anybody that directly commits the abortion and in many cases anyone that encourages them, like Pelosi.
The majority of Catholics actually disagree with that, along with the pope.
The conservative Bishops feel that position is enough to deny them holy communion because its a grievous sin against God.
This assumes that they are intentionally committing a grievous sin.
This seems to be the area most important. Do Pelosi and Biden know that they are committing sins and doing it anyway?
What if they believe the Pope, who says they should be able to get communion?
This is actually what defines our world today. People believe the side that tells us what we want to hear..........then align with it.
They have a seriously good case by siting the statments of President Francis to justify receiving communion. This is more current that old Cannon Law statements that get changes sometimes by the Pope, who updates the interpretation to make it current with the times or to clarify how it applies to the times, sometime many decades after it was written.
What I don't get is why does the Bishop have to make the announcement thru a press release to maximize the attention and maximize the public damage to her?
Priests vow to never reveal confessed sins under ANY circumstances and this seems to violate that objective in a huge way(keeping a persons sins between them and God/the priest) . Telling the entire world that Pelosi is committing a sin and telling the world what her penalty will be..........accomplishes what exactly?
He could have very easily contacted her privately and told her this to leave it between her and God and the Biship, where it should be.
Sure seems like a desire to embarrass, chastise and punish her public embarrassment, with self serving motives related to using it for his agenda instead of following the strict application of addressing a persons sins in the community with the same confidentiality demanded of him in canon law.
San Francisco archbishop: Nancy Pelosi to be denied Communion because she supports abortion rights -StarTribune.com
"After numerous attempts to speak with her to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking, I have determined that the point has come in which I must make a public declaration that she is not to be admitted to Holy Communion unless and until she publicly repudiates her support for abortion 'rights' and confess and receive absolution for her cooperation in this evil in the sacrament of Penance," Cordileone said Friday in a letter to members of his archdiocese.
"I have accordingly sent her a Notification to this effect, which I have now made public," he added.
In a separate letter to Pelosi, Cordileone ordered the House speaker "not to present yourself for Holy Communion" and warned that if she does, she will not be given the sacrament.
Cutworm--
It seems that the bishop is using this as a last resort after " numerous attempts to speak with her to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking"
The Sheperd will protect the floc while going after the stray.
When my father saw me going astray, he rebuked me, because he loved me, not because he hated me.
It seems in this very particular case that the sin is very public, and attempts were made to be private. JMHO
----------
Same acritical; (the emphasis is mine)
Last September, Pope Francis said the decision about granting Communion to politicians who support abortion rights should be made from a pastoral point of view, not a political one. He told reporters: "I have never refused the Eucharist to anyone," while adding that he has never knowingly encountered during Communion a politician who backs abortion rights. Francis, however, reiterated that abortion is "murder."
Catholic archbishops have vast power within their diocese, and a reversal of Cordileone's decision would require the intervention of the Vatican, which is unlikely. The order to deny Communion to Pelosi appears to apply only to Catholic churches within the San Francisco archdiocese, including the speaker's home church.
Cutworm---
We don't know all that the bishop did or did not try to do before issuing this letter. IMHO the statement 'After numerous attempts to speak with her to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking,' would lead me to believe that his view is pastoral. Again, we don't know all the facts.
It may seem political to most, and a side effect maybe political. Is the scandal political? I think yes. this is a view from a different angle than the bishop's view. IMHO. But is he trying to stop the sin (scandal)? I think yes
Setting the communion discussion aside...
What really defines the entire debate for me... When opponents attempt to engage in honest discssion of what the process involves, their tactics are referred to as "inflamatory".
When opponents label honest discussion as inflamatory, that tells me even they don't agree with their own arguments and would rather the arguments not see the light of day.
So we have to ask.
What good came out of this press release by the Bishop to let the world know that in his jurisdiction, this particular woman is no longer allowed to receive communion?
He says that he tried to contact Pelosi personally and her office never responded and that's why he had to take this step.
So does that mean when a person going to confession, that keeps repeating the sin in public and everybody sees it, the priest can go public, including administering her penalty for the world to see?
Nancy Pelosi is one person. She's in the public eye, so she's a very powerful person. This Bishop very much disagrees with her position on abortion and has every right to make that disagreement public. I also strongly disagree with Pelosi(but am no Bishop).
So the Bishop has decided to take a stand, using Pelosi, who brags about being a Catholic as an example and publicly banned her from the privilege of receiving Holy Communion............with obviously very little thought of the damage that he is doing to the institution that he represents.
The MUCH BIGGER message that he is sending out to ALL Catholics. If you are Pro Choice or ok with abortion.......you should not be receiving communion. This, in spite of the leader of the church, the Pope clearly stating last year that this is NOT so.
What does this mean?
1. It exposes the extremely divided Catholic Church right now. The division is between the very conservative, traditional Catholics and leadership and the progressive Catholics led by Pope Francis. It's been going on for years. It happens in every organization that doesn't like change. The traditionalists had no problem following the prior conservative Popes but are rebelling against this pope because they don't like any changes, they want things to stay the same. So, like people do in politics, religion, even science and every other realm, they ignore things they don't want to believe or accept because they don't line up with their belief system. The progressives celebrate and welcome changes that are gradually being introduced to adjust based on the real world, so that the Catholic Church can remain relevant and not end up being discarded like an old relic, that gives all the power to old men that are forbidden to partake in the sacrament of marriage. ......because.......that's the way it's always been and the bible says so.
2. It suggests to 10's of millions of Catholics that agree with Pelosi, actually more than half of them "YOU are not supposed to be receiving holy communion".
3. Out of those 10's of millions, what is more likely.
a. Those Catholic will suddenly change their view and become pro life because they let Catholic doctrine guide their opinions or
b. They are less likely to receive communion and MUCH, MUCH less likely to attend mass. After all, who goes to mass and doesn't go to communion because they feel they are in the state of grievous sin? Answer..........almost nobody. They just don't go to mass. People like that would immediately go to confession, then be able to have communion. Communion is, by far the most important part of mass for almost all Catholics. Why go there and not have communion?
So obviously b. is MUCH more likely than a. by a wide margin. However, c will be the actual choice:
c. Ignore this decision and go to mass and communion anyway, because you were raised a Catholic and go there for other reasons, not to be told by The top leadership how to apply YOUR faith in YOUR life.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/20/8-key-findings-about-catholics-and-abortion/
4. The Catholic Church considers itself "Universal" in our Creed, which means open to everybody and it greatly desires providing a welcoming and evangelizing posturing to both long lived and potentially new members.
This is a tiff between a Bishop and a publicly well know Catholic politician, who is breaking rules (that many Bishops are taking one side and strongly disagree with their doctrine infallible leader-the pope). Is it going to cause more people to want to become Catholic or less?
I totally get the reasoning to support it. Standing by one's religious convictions with absolutely no room for another interpretation except the one being used by the traditionalists because they are certain that they got it straight from God thousands of years ago and no matter what happens in today's world, that can never change.
Like they say, you're wasting your time debating somebody about religion and politics because they have already decided what they believe and will always believe and interpret all new information to support that.
I like to surprise people with this statement:
metmike: I've done alot of studying of all the religions in the last couple of decades and looked at all the doctrines and principles and evidence and I'm absolutely certain I finally know what the true religion is!
Other person: Really?? Or sometimes, rolling their eyes.
metmike: Yep. Whatever the religion you were raised to believe in is or recently converted to (-:
Mike Can you give me some sites where I can study this:
"If you are Pro Choice or ok with abortion.......you should not be receiving communion. This, in spite of the leader of the church, the Pope clearly stating last year that this is NOT so."
This is what I keep coming up with:
He told reporters: "I have never refused the Eucharist to anyone," while adding that he has never knowingly encountered during Communion a politician who backs abortion rights. Francis, however, reiterated that abortion is "murder."
most liberal sites leave off the last part "Francis, however, reiterated that abortion is "murder."
There must be more that I have not found. i have researched these and many other sites
12 Things Pope Francis has said about abortion (aleteia.org)
Respect Life: Pope Francis’ 8 strongest statements against abortion | Catholic News Agency
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/03/29/pope-francis-pro-life-vatican-242713
"Abortion has been the primary topic of the pro-life conversation for decades, but when Francis became the head of the church in 2013, he began promoting a broader interpretation of what being a pro-life Catholic actually means."
"Asked about the proposal by some U.S. bishops to ban Catholic pro-choice politicians, including President Joe Biden, from receiving the Eucharist, Paglia said there is not much more to add. “The pope has already provided a very clear answer and there is no need to add anything else,” he said, referring to Francis’ claim that he has never denied Communion to anyone at Mass."
metmike: It doesn't get any more definitive than that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenzo_Paglia
Vincenzo Paglia (born 20 April 1945) is an Italian prelate of the Roman Catholic Church. He is President of the Pontifical Academy for Life and Grand Chancellor of the John Paul II Pontifical Theological Institute for Marriage and Family Sciences. He was President of the Pontifical Council for the Family from 2012 to 2016 and Bishop of Terni-Narni-Amelia, Italy, from 2000 to 2012. He was a co-founder of the Community of Sant'Egidio in 1968.
i really have no respect for her political agendas that she pushes, but...
she has one smart simple thing she can do here. just quit the catholic church.
she could become a methodist, or a quaker (friends), or a mennonite, or baptist, or a unitarian, etc.
Yes, bear.
I have zero respect for anything that she says and she's a massive hypocrite on religion.
These were some of my favorite's:
CNN: "Donald Trump falls for Nancy Pelosi's trap"
Started by metmike - May 24, 2019, 10:52 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/30972/
Forgive Nancy Pelosi
7 responses |
Started by mikempt - Sept. 5, 2020, 10:08 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/58721/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yodlvO3Nnk