Good point joj

Previous discussions about this:

                Gun control            

                            25 responses |     

                Started by metmike - June 2, 2022, 5:28 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/85198/

   Deadly shooting            

                            63 responses |    

                Started by metmike - May 24, 2022, 10:16 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/84814/

                Guns, Lets Take a Poll                        

                12 responses |            

                Started by mikempt - May 29, 2022, 4:51 p.m.    

       https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/84997/

Please carry on using this thread or any of the other ones.

If there are teachers who are willing,  I don't see this as a bad idea. There are a lot of teachers with military background. I had more than one teacher who was a marine.  I hear they're pretty good with weapons. 

As far as mistaking who the bad guys is..     In most schools I've been to, or around,   the teachers all know each other, and the staff and even have a nodding aquaintance with all of the students.  The one shooting the other students/teachers is probaly the bad guy,  right?

In any event,  I have no problem with armed personel in schools and think it's a good idea, whether they are teachers or someone else.  Lot's of former military would line up for the job.

I wonder why anyone would argue against protecting our schools as well as we protect banks and just about every other government building?

I would more likely arm the janitors {more qualified} but there is not s reason why willing teachers are not armed.....not one good reason. And yes joj this would remove bout 1/2 million no guns/ no defenses areas around our country. In Texas as the police were apparently having a meeting in the hall way there were parent and teachers ready to go in 

Anothing thing about this...  Once it's known there are armed personel in house, the chances of a shooting drop dramatically.. Probably to near 0.   As I've said, these shooters may be crazy,  but they are not stupid.

Another example of how people, have decided they are right and will interpret every iota of every fact to support this assumption of being right and ignore truths, evidence, opinions/desires/needs of the most important people and critical thinking that show otherwise.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/229808/teachers-oppose-carrying-guns-schools.aspx

• 73% of teachers oppose teachers and staff carrying guns in schools
• 58% say carrying guns in schools would make schools less safe
• 18% would be willing to carry a gun in school buildings

metmike: But what do teachers know about schools? They need to be enlightened about schools, child protection/safety and guns by the non negotiable authorities that should be telling them what to do.

And the continued, tunnel vision position by the extreme side on this issue is to double down and get  even more absurdly extreme and actually be convinced ........that this is the solution. 

It would be like being in the middle of a crop damaging flooding rain event.....and turning on the irrigation system to make it better. 

MM, if you were in that foxhole you would be very grateful for the cover, but you have never been. A janitor, a willing teacher or a parent would sure be better than whatever non option most have in a "gun free" area while the bad guy goes bersherk

you, joj or anyone else can throw around the words crazy idea, absurd, silly all you want but when asked what to do there is deafening silence except to slam others. Guess crawling around on the floor while all are slaughtered sounds like your idea

Thanks mcfarm!

"but when asked what to do there is deafening silence except to slam others"

Actually mcfarm, you are accusing the democrats of doing exactly what the republicans are doing. It's the democrats that want gun control of a few weapons, universal background checks and raising the legal age to 21 and are screaming from the rooftops for it, including Bidens special address to the nation last week?

How is that deafening silence?

+++++++++++++++++++

"MM, if you were in that foxhole you would be very grateful for the cover, but you have never been. A janitor, a willing teacher or a parent would sure be better than whatever non option most have in a "gun free" area"

mcfarm,

1. What does being in a foxhole have to do with it? Almost no teachers have ever been in a foxhole and not one student has ever been and they DON'T WANT THIS.

You completely ignored the link showing this on the previous post, so here is another one saying the same thing for you to ignore because you've decided that you know better than the teachers themselves about their schools. 

Should Teachers Carry Guns? The Debate, Explained

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/should-teachers-carry-guns-the-debate-explained/2018/08

• Teach Plus, a national advocacy group for teacher leadership, polled 1,233 teachers and found nearly 80 percent said they strongly oppose arming teachers in school.
• The National Education Association surveyed 1,000 of its members and 82 percent of respondents said they would not carry a gun to school even if they had firearms training and were allowed to do so.
• And a Gallup poll found less than 30 percent of teachers think that arming teachers would be very or somewhat effective in limiting the number of victims in a school shooting.

2. With regards to the foxhole analogy, I'm a volunteer chess coach for 5 different schools(and been doing this for 25 years-more than half my adult life) and explained the different, effective security systems and weak points in some detail for each school........THAT I WITNESS and am part of every week.  And you suggest that because I was never in a foxhole that I don't know what I'm talking about????

How many schools have you been to this past year mcfarm? How many times have you been to schools in the past decade?

During  half the school year, I go to a different school each day of the week and been doing that for 25 years. And I go in a way that observes the security for guests entering the building that very few people would get to see at all those schools every week. 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/85066/#85067

3. Keep in mind that I'm just responding to your attack earlier on whether I'm qualified to understand this and absurdly, telling teachers themselves that they are wrong to have this one sided opinion....about themselves and their jobs. I'm totally NOT offended mcfarm but would just like you to see how extreme you're getting to try to rationalize a position using an embarrassingly silly and wrong tactic. 

Regurgitating the party line because.........it's the part of belief system, like its a faith based religion and ignoring the real world.

If teachers were overwhelmingly for this.........I would be too. At least respect that mcfarm!

Good Lord MM....foxhole was an analogy for the teachers and kids trapped in a class room 

Good lord mcfarm,  did you get a word  of the response?

Interesting MM.  You feel that teachers opinions are the definitive argument on the subject of protecting school children.  Well, of course , as we all know, they've done a splendid job so far, so why look any further for options?

I mean,   this is a sample of people that. for the most part, leans moderately to extremely left in politics and are ptrobably already staunchly anti-gun, so what better group to ask about whether armed personel in school might be a good response to armed shooters?

Well done MM.   I must concede.   Obviously an armed response to armed individuals is a stupid idea. 

MM, have you not listened or heard anything form todays new crop of teachers the last few years. Only 1 way I would respect their opinion on defending a class room. That is to  gather a band of teachers from say 50 years ago and ask them for their opinion. Libs have pretty much ruined public education and the gret teachers we used to have in this country.

Imagine that revolutionary concept. 

Teachers knowing about the teaching environment, and not far right guns activists (-:

I see that you continue to ignore every iota of my personal observations being there with almost 100 total individual visits at  5 different schools each year.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/85066/#85067

mcfarm,

You still haven't answered to me how many times you've been to a school and how many schools in the last decade?

Same question for you tim.

For authorities that know better than the ones(teachers) actually there all day, one would think, that at the very least,  you'd have first hand observations and not just regurgitated far right talking points.

Even with all my visits to the different schools and experiences of entering the buildings as a guest who observes  the security systems(volunteer chess coach) I will concede to the strong opinions of the REAL experts........the teachers.

MM

I am from Canada and admit it has been a long time since I entered a school facility

Mostly just for family graduation. Not on a typical school day

We will have our shooting in school some day, I am sure, although very few in Canada actually carry a gun

Border patrol is the most obvious in Canada

But if my opinion doesn't fit with the popular narrative, then disqualify my opinion

If I was a shooter, I would think twice about any place that would have guns shooting back at me

You see MM I would want the safest place for me to do my thing. And if that was in any way dangerous to me, I would go else where where I would be much safer with no guns shooting back at me

I would not got to a school because I get my jollies shooting little children, and a teacher figure that may be just my good luck, because maybe I don't like teachers, from days past

You see MM, any school with guns is dangerous to me

I would pick a place that had no guns shooting back at me. Maybe not even a school, but 1st I want to know if they have guns

Myself I would want an exit plan but it seems these crazies don't think about an exit plan. Maybe they don't care in which case guns shooting back doesn't matter all that much

We don't understand these crazies, as most of us would want an exit plan to continue living

A crazy may not care so much, so guns shooting back may apply to rational people like most of us, but living may not be a high priority, to a crazy shooter

I really don't know, but I have to think guns shooting back would be better than acting like mice waiting for the cat to enter the room

Gosh MM.  I quite clearly agreed with you above.  Teadhers are obvious experts of defense of all things.  The idea of defending yourself against an insane shooter with a gun is so..  "Wild West"

I think the whole problem is poor communication.  What we really need is a massive media campaign that drives home the point that schools are "GUN FREE ZONES!!!".  Once we have properly educated the lunatics that if they insist on shooting children, they'll just need to find another unprotected area with children tightly packed into small enclosed areas.

Then, at last, our schools will be safe!!!   Halleluja!!!

Thanks Wayne for the new position. Actually, its a good point.l 

The weakness in following the teachers being experts of the environments they know better than anybody in the planet is that they don't understand the mindset of the crazies.

We can both agree that psychologists/psychiatrists  would be experts on the mind of people, including crazies, correct?

Let's find out what they think about guns in schools:

NASP Opposes Arming Teachers

https://www.nasponline.org/about-school-psychology/media-room/press-releases/nasp-opposes-arming-teachers

The National Association of School Psychologists (NASP) strongly opposes arming teachers as a strategy for preventing gun violence on school grounds. NASP joins virtually every other organization representing school and safety professionals in recognizing that arming school staff is wrong. Doing so places an unrealistic, unreasonable burden on America's educators, has the potential to cause more harm from unintentional or inaccurate discharge of firearms, and can undermine the sense of safe, supportive learning environments.

metmike: I understand that your political position, compels you to stay on this path, no matter how many ways, shapes and forms the evidence to contradict rationalizations come in.

BTW, I saw 3 different psychiatrists between grades 8-12 to stay in school (numerous suspensions) because of my extreme vandalism and being pretty crazy. I remember how my mind used to work. Mom saw 5 different shrinks from being crazy and having lost both parents as a child and having a horrible/painful childhood that resulted in pathological behaviors and tried to kill herself numerous times.

Thank God, I was able to escape that pathological mindset and in fact, use it to gain insight and discernment on many things to be the exact opposite and make the world a better place instead of how I was as a selfish, deranged kid.   

If not for being a meteorologist, I would have loved psychiatry. You will note my passion/love to authentically psychoanalyze people here based on their  posts and tendencies/traits.

This doesn't relate to school laws but to the crazy people:

Mass Shootings and
Mental Illness

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

        The Other Side of Anger   

      School Shooters: Understanding their path to violence is key to prevention

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/02/10/690372199/school-shooters-whats-their-path-to-violence

Sadly, this has given the mentally ill community an unfair bad rap.

In the past, I spent time at the Rescue Mission in Evansville helping out(mainly serving meals) but got to meet and serve meals to the residents countless times.

Half of them have unresolved mental illness and are completely harmless but their MINDS ARE BROKEN. 

If you broke both legs, society would understand that you can't perform physical labor because we can see the broken legs.

When your mind is damaged, it's invisible and people that can't see it or understand it will judge you by the standards we have for well tuned/healthy minds...........like expecting the man with broken legs to do things somebody with healthy/strong legs can do. 

You can't see whats inside the mind. Science/medicine can't even measure the neurotransmitters in our brains that define brain chemistry to prescribe the right antidepressants like they can with dozens of other measurements of things in your blood to treat diseases or disorders.

So, there's a lot of trial and error and guessing for the right treatments and lack of effectiveness in some cases.

Many of these people are not lazy and almost none of them want to be this way. They can't just read a manual for fixing a broken mind or  getting better from mental illness and apply it.

Even treatments from specialists who do this for a living have mixed results. It's extremely complicated.

There's genetic components, that relate to brain chemistry.

There's additional environmental components.

Sometimes 1 of them can cause all of it because it's so profound in the person. But everyone is different.

Some people can go thru years of traumatic experiences and use it to learn coping skills/ even learning things that make them A BETTER PERSON and become much stronger because of it. 

Others, with the same upbrining can be sentenced to a life of haunting memories that no matter what, remain like a massive ball and chain sabotaging mental health recovery. 

Thanks Wayne for the new position. Actually, its a good point.

I have made the same point about a dozen times.   Armed personel in schools is likely to act as a deterent.

remember when I said they may be crazy,  but they aren't stupid?   Naaahhh,  prolly not  :-)

You need to figure out why that's the case...  

Thanks Wayne for the new position. Actually, its a good point.

I have made the same point about a dozen times.   Armed personel in schools is likely to act as a deterent.

No Tim, that was NOT the point that I was referring to.

I was referring to understanding the minds of mentally ill people from a psychological/scientific aspect and the treatment of mental illness.

You are talking about something totally different.

Arming teachers who are strongly opposed to being armed(and we would need their cooperation) does not treat mental illness.

You keep twisting everything(rationalizing)  so that it lines up with/justifies what you want to believe.

I really do understand what your thinking is and mostly disagree with it but what you and I think is of much lesser importance than what the teachers think.

I already described how our schools very effective security works.

The main weak points would be during dismissal and coming in the morning, when the doors MUST BE OPEN and the halls are filled with children/teachers.

In those cases, having a shoot out in a hallway loaded with many dozens of children, some that will get hit by bullets from your good guy is not an option any teacher would opt for.

During the day, when the children are in their classrooms, you just don't allow unauthorized people in the building. It's not only easy to do.........we've been doing it very effectively for at least 8 years at all of our schools.

I'm willing to bet that the Sandy Hook shooting in 2012 prompted the big changes in our security that took place just after that!

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/85066/#85067

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting

The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting occurred on December 14, 2012, in Newtown, Connecticut, United States, when 20-year-old Adam Lanza shot and killed 26 people. Twenty of the victims were children between six and seven years old, and six were adult staff members. Earlier that day, before driving to the school, Lanza shot and killed his mother at their Newtown home. As first responders arrived at the school, Lanza committed suicide by shooting himself in the head.

Arming teachers who are strongly opposed to being armed(and we would need their cooperation) does not treat mental illness.

When you blatantly misrepresent what I say,  I can see why you'd disagree.  My very first statement in the very first post in this thread..

If there are teachers who are willing,  I don't see this as a bad idea. There are a lot of teachers with military background. I had more than one teacher who was a marine.  I hear they're pretty good with weapons.

I went on to say that baring that, (willing teachers), there are former military who would be more than willing to take the job. 

Also,   I think you need to re-read Wayne's post. 95% of it was about the deterenece of having armed personel. If you were speaking to some other point he made, then I apologize.  But surely you can see why I might be confused at your intentions.

Finally, I categorically disagree with your assesment that teachers are the "experts" on how to defend students. I would say it's quite the contrary.  We know that armed gaurds work for politicians and celebrities and banks and government buildings and dozens, if not hundreds of other examples.

The opinions of what is likely a left leaning anti-gun population does not change that fact. I can't begin to imagine why you would think it does.