Biggest attack from the Gaza Strip on Israel in over a decade?
Looks like war, with Israel preparing to respond.
This is real bad news )-:
Please scroll down for more on the history/geography.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur
Yom Kippur (/ˌjɒmkɪˈpʊər, ˌjɔːmˈkɪpər, ˌjoʊm-/YAHM kip-OOR, YAWM KIP-ər, YOHM-;[1]Hebrew: יוֹם כִּפּוּר, Yōm Kippūr, [ˈjom kiˈpuʁ], lit. 'Day of Atonement') is the holiest day in Judaism and Samaritanism.[2][3][4] It occurs annually on the 10th of Tishrei,[5] corresponding to a date in September or early October.
For traditional Jewish observants, it is primarily centered on atonement and repentance, the day's main observances consist of full fasting and ascetic behavior accompanied by a long prayer service in synagogue, as well as sin confessions. Many Jewish denominations, such as Reconstructionist Judaism (vs. Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc.) focus strongly on one’s goals and accomplishments and setting yearly intentions, rather than focusing on “sins.”
Alongside the related holiday of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur is one of the two components of the "High Holy Days" of Judaism. It is also the last day of the Ten Days of Repentance.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
The Yom Kippur War, also known as the Ramadan War, the October War,[60] the 1973 Arab–Israeli War, or the Fourth Arab–Israeli War, was an armed conflict fought from October 6 to 25, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria. The majority of combat between the two sides took place in the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights—both of which were occupied by Israel in 1967—with some fighting in African Egypt and northern Israel.[61][62][page needed] Egypt's initial objective in the war was to seize a foothold on the eastern bank of the Suez Canal and subsequently leverage these gains to negotiate the return of the rest of the Israeli-occupied Sinai Peninsula.[63][64][65][66]
The war began on October 6, 1973, when the Arab coalition jointly launched a surprise attack against Israel on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, which had occurred during the 10th of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan in that year.[67] Following the outbreak of hostilities, both the United States and the Soviet Union initiated massive resupply efforts to their respective allies during the war,[68][69][70] which led to a confrontation between the two nuclear-armed superpowers.[71]
My brother, who lives in Israel, says he's never seen anything like this in his lifetime. No telling where this leads...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1973)
The Geneva Conference of 1973 was an attempt to negotiate a solution to the Arab–Israeli conflict as envisioned in United Nations Security Council Resolution 338 following the called-for cease-fire to end the Yom Kippur War. After considerable "shuttle diplomacy" negotiations by Henry Kissinger, the conference opened on 21 December 1973 under the auspices of the United Nations Secretary General, with the United States and the USSR as co-chairmen. The foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan and Israel were in attendance. The table with Syria's nameplate remained unoccupied, although Syria had indicated possible future participation. Each foreign minister spoke, mainly directed to their domestic audiences rather than to each other. Kissinger articulated his step-by-step strategy and stated that the goal of the conference was peace; the immediate need was to strengthen the cease-fire by accomplishing a disengagement of forces as the "essential first step" toward implementation of UN 242. The meeting was then adjourned.[1]
Although no agreement was reached at Geneva, the effort was not in vain. Following the Israeli election, a military disengagement between Israel and Egypt was signed on 18 January 1974, and a disengagement between Israel and Syria was signed on 31 May.
Although attempts in later years to revive the Conference failed, the Sinai Interim Agreement between Israel and Egypt was formally signed in Geneva on 4 September 1975, as part of the Geneva Conference process. This agreement stated that the conflicts between Egypt and Israel "shall not be resolved by military force but by peaceful means."
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https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-geneva-peace-conference
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More on the Geneva Conventions history:
The Geneva Conventions are international humanitarian laws consisting of four treaties and three additional protocols that establish international legal standards for humanitarian treatment in war. The singular term Geneva Convention usually denotes the agreements of 1949, negotiated in the aftermath of the Second World War (1939–1945), which updated the terms of the two 1929 treaties and added two new conventions. The Geneva Conventions extensively define the basic rights of wartime prisoners, civilians and military personnel, established protections for the wounded and sick, and provided protections for the civilians in and around a war-zone.[2]
The Geneva Conventions defines the rights and protections afforded to non-combatants who fulfills the criteria of being protected persons.[3] The treaties of 1949 were ratified, in their entirety or with reservations, by 196 countries.[2] The Geneva Conventions concern only protected non-combatants in war. The use of wartime conventional weapons are addressed by the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, while the biological and chemical warfare in international armed conflicts are addressed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords
The Camp David Accords were a pair of political agreements signed by Egyptian PresidentAnwar Sadat and Israeli Prime MinisterMenachem Begin on 17 September 1978,[1] following twelve days of secret negotiations at Camp David, the country retreat of the President of the United States in Maryland.[2] The two framework agreements were signed at the White House and were witnessed by President Jimmy Carter. The second of these frameworks (A Framework for the Conclusion of a Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel) led directly to the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace treaty. Due to the agreement, Sadat and Begin received the shared 1978 Nobel Peace Prize. The first framework (A Framework for Peace in the Middle East), which dealt with the Palestinian territories, was written without participation of the Palestinians and was condemned by the United Nations.
Hamas is being condemned by most of the international community. Within 3 days Israel will be condemned by the same countries for using excessive force in its response.
IMO ~ I'M SURE THE GODLESS BIDEN ADMIN. IS WATCHIN', AS IRAN SPENDS ALL THOSE BILLIONS, THEY JUST GOT.
WHAT A CRIME ~ WHAT A SHAME ~ PURE EVIL
Thanks,
Keep us posted on the latest you guys.
Israel has every right to obliterate their attacker!
I hope that your brother and his family stay safe, joj and that Israel prevails quickly.
Sadly, this probably marks the beginning of a new conflict that will continue on some level for years.
Though our political system is completely messed up in the U.S., we should appreciate the long lived peace our country has experienced at home/on our mainland for over a century.
Try to imagine what its like living in Ukraine and now Israel )-:
We lucked out being born here!
There are 100 other countries and 100 other reasons to be thankful for what we have, which profoundly trumps all the negatives.
A little geography and history for those not familiar with this area.
A view of the entire region below. Note tiny little Israel in the dark brown with the Mediterranean Sea to it's west, surrounded by massive land areas of the Arab world on all other sides
https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/israel_map.htm
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/pix/b/nea/20958.htm
https://www.pcrf.net/information-you-should-know/what-are-the-gaza-strip-and-the-west-bank.html
"The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are two Palestinian territories that were part of Mandate Palestine and were captured by Israel during the Six-Day War in 1967. There are over 5 million Palestinians combined living in the two territories.
The Gaza Strip is 140 sq miles of land located in the southwest corner of Israel, along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. It also shares a border with Egypt to the south.
The West Bank is another area of land located within the country of Israel, but it is much larger than the Gaza Strip at 2,173 sq miles. The West Bank stretches across the eastern border of Israel along the west banks of the Jordan River and most of the Dead Sea, thus how it received its name. The holy city of Jerusalem is considered by international law as part of the West Bank, with East Jerusalem being claimed as the capital by both Israelis and Palestinians.
In 1967, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were involved in a military struggle most commonly known as the Six-Day War. Up until that point, the Gaza Strip had been under Egypt’s control and the West Bank under Jordan’s. However, after the Six-Day War, both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were seized by Israel.
There has been a conflict over the specific territories of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank for over a hundred years, dating back even before Israel became a country. Since the Six-Day War, though, the tension between Israelis and Palestinians living in the territories has been constant, often ending in violence. Because Israel controls all access into the Gaza Strip and West Bank, Palestinians living there are under military occupation and are subject to Israeli restrictions, often depending on aid for food, water, and supplies."
The detailed history of this area goes back farther than the history of any other location, especially because of the religious events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
Neo-Assyrian Empire at its greatest territorial extent.
Holy Land stretches from Egypt to Syria
Living faiths are part of the land
Nowhere on earth is more sanctified than the segment of the Middle East known as the Holy Land. In this sacred space, the main monotheistic faiths believe, God entered into a relationship with the human race.
https://www.seetheholyland.net/what-is-this-holy-land/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)
The Green Line, (pre-)1967 border, or 1949 Armistice border,[1] is the demarcation line set out in the 1949 Armistice Agreements between the armies of Israel and those of its neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. It served as the de facto borders of the State of Israel from 1949 until the Six-Day War in 1967, and continues to represent Israel’s internationally recognized borders with the two Palestinian territories: the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.[2][3]
https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/AboutIsrael/history/Pages/History-Israel-Timeline.aspx
| STATE OF ISRAEL | |
1948 | End of British Mandate (14 May) State of Israel proclaimed (14 May). Israel invaded by five Arab states (15 May). Israel Defense Forces (IDF) established. War of Independence (May 1948-July 1949). |
| 1949 | Armistice agreements signed with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. Jerusalem divided under Israeli and Jordanian rule. First Knesset (parliament) elected. Israel admitted to United Nations as 59th member. |
1948-52 | Mass immigration from Europe and Arab countries. |
| 1956 | Sinai Campaign |
| 1962 | Adolf Eichmann tried and executed in Israel for his part in the Holocaust. |
1964 | National Water Carrier completed, bringing water from Lake Kinneret in the north to the semi-arid south. |
1967 | Six-Day War; Jerusalem reunited. |
| 1968-70 | Egypt's War of Attrition against Israel |
| 1973 | Yom Kippur War |
| 1975 | Israel becomes an associate member of the European Common Market. |
| 1977 | Likud forms government after Knesset elections, end of 30 years of Labor rule. Visit of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat to Jerusalem. |
| 1978 | Camp David Accords include framework for comprehensive peace in the Middle East and proposal for Palestinian self-government. |
| 1979 | Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty signed. Prime Minister Menachem Begin and President Anwar Sadat awarded Nobel Peace Prize. |
| 1981 | Israel Air Force destroys Iraqi nuclear reactor just before it is to become operative. |
| 1982 | Israel's three-stage withdrawal from Sinai Peninsula completed. Operation Peace for Galilee removes Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) terrorists from Lebanon. |
| 1984 | National unity government (Likud and Labor) formed after elections. Operation Moses, immigration of Jews from Ethiopia. |
| 1985 | Free Trade Agreement signed with United States. |
| 1987 | Widespread violence (Intifada) starts in Israeli-administered areas. |
| 1988 | Likud government wins elections. |
1989 | Four-point peace initiative proposed by Israel. Start of mass immigration of Jews from former Soviet Union. |
| 1991 | Israel attacked by Iraqi Scud missiles during Gulf war. Middle East peace conference convened in Madrid; Operation Solomon, airlift of Jews from Ethiopia. |
| 1992 | Diplomatic relations established with China and India. New government headed by Yitzhak Rabin of Labor Party. |
| 1993 | Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements for the Palestinians signed by Israel and PLO, as representative of the Palestinian people (Oslo Accords). |
1994 | Implementation of Palestinian self-government in Gaza Strip and Jericho area. Full diplomatic relations with the Holy See. Morocco and Tunisia interest offices set up. Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty signed. Rabin, Peres, Arafat awarded Nobel Peace Prize. |
| 1995 | Broadened Palestinian self-government implemented in West Bank and Gaza Strip; Palestinian Council elected. Prime Minister Rabin assassinated at peace rally. Shimon Peres becomes prime minister. |
| 1996 | Fundamentalist Arab terrorism against Israel escalates. Operation Grapes of Wrath, retaliation for Hizbullah terrorists' attacks on northern Israel. Trade representation offices set up in Oman and Qatar. Likud forms government after Knesset elections. Binyamin Netanyahu elected prime minister. Omani trade representation office opened in Tel Aviv. |
| 1997 | Hebron Protocol signed by Israel and the PA. |
1998 | Israel celebrates its 50th anniversary. Israel and the PLO sign the Wye River Memorandum to facilitate implementation of the Interim Agreement. |
| 1999 | Ehud Barak (left-wing One Israel party) elected prime minister; forms coalition government. Israel and the PLO sign the Sharm-el-Sheikh Memorandum. |
| 2000 | Visit of Pope Paul II. Israel withdraws from the Security Zone in southern Lebanon. Israel admitted to UN Western European and Others Group. Renewed violence (Second Intifada). Prime Minister Barak resigns. |
| 2001 | Ariel Sharon (Likud) elected Prime Minister; forms broad-based unity government. The Sharm-el-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee report (Mitchell Report) issued. Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet ceasefire plan) proposed. Rechavam Ze'evy, Minister of Tourism, assassinated by Palestinian terrorists. |
| 2002 | Israel launches Operation Defensive Shield in response to massive Palestinian terrorist attacks. Israel begins building the anti-terrorist fence to stop West Bank terrorists from killing Israeli citizens. Prime Minister Sharon disperses the Knesset, calling for new elections to be held on 28 January 2003. |
| 2003 | Right-of-center coalition government formed by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Israel accepts the Roadmap. |
| 2005 | Israel carries out the Disengagement Plan, ending Israel's presence in the Gaza Strip. |
| 2006 | After Prime Minister Sharon suffers a stroke, Ehud Olmert becomes acting prime minister. Following elections on 28 March, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert forms new government led by the Kadima Party. Israel carried out military operations against Palestinian terrorists in Gaza after kidnapping of Israeli soldier. The Second War in Lebanon, during which Israel carried out military operations against Hizbullah terrorism from southern Lebanon, following missile attacks and kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. |
| 2007 | Shimon Peres elected President by the Knesset. Israel declares Gaza "hostile territory" following Hamas violent takeover of Gaza Strip. |
| 2008 | Israel celebrates its 60th anniversary. Israel launches its Gaza Operation (Operation Cast Lead) in response to the barrage of over 10,000 rockets and mortars fired from the Gaza Strip. |
| 2009 | Benjamin Netanyahu is elected Prime Minister in national elections held in February 2009, and forms a broad-based coalition government The city of Tel Aviv celebrates its 100th anniversary. |
| 2010 | Israel joins the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). |
2023: Hamas shocks unsuspecting Israel with attacks from the Gaza strip!
Tehran is a key backer of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, as well as Lebanese terror group Hezbollah.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republicans-biden-unfreezing-6-billion-iran-hamas-attack-israel
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/18/politics/iran-money-explainer/index.html
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4243388-saudi-arabia-qatar-iran-blame-israel-hamas-attacks/
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At this time, I don't know enough specifics about what has been going on in the areas which Israel conquered and took over in 1967 to see both sides. More research is needed to understand it even better.
Regardless of the authentic facts, this is a an extremely polarizing and hate filled environment and light years away from ever negotiating peaceful terms that make both sides happy.
This is what made President Carter's peace treaty in 1979 between Egypt and Israel a miracle!
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/99469/#99476
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However, the mentality of the region has been set by the facts below:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/99469/#99484
"In 1967, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were involved in a military struggle most commonly known as the Six-Day War. Up until that point, the Gaza Strip had been under Egypt’s control and the West Bank under Jordan’s. However, after the Six-Day War, both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were seized by Israel.
There has been a conflict over the specific territories of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank for over a hundred years, dating back even before Israel became a country. Since the Six-Day War, though, the tension between Israelis and Palestinians living in the territories has been constant, often ending in violence. Because Israel controls all access into the Gaza Strip and West Bank, Palestinians living there are under military occupation and are subject to Israeli restrictions, often depending on aid for food, water, and supplies."
Hamas (Gaza) and the Palestinian Authority (West Bank) are very different. There has been much cooperation between the PA and Israeli security. But with Hamas, there is nothing Israel can possibly do to satisfy them short of total self-annihilation.
Republicans making political points by slamming Biden is disgusting in my view.
We are indeed lucky to live in America. My brother, sister, and their children are all safe. (Thank God) This was a message regarding a friend of his who was in danger:
"Adele survived the ordeal. The terrorists shot into her house, but she didn't make a sound. Meanwhile, her son-in-law and her two little granddaughters were in an apartment nearby. Two terrorists burst into the apartment and the son-in-law shot both of them dead on the spot."
"Adele survived the ordeal. The terrorists shot into her house, but she didn't make a sound. Meanwhile, her son-in-law and her two little granddaughters were in an apartment nearby. Two terrorists burst into the apartment and the son-in-law shot both of them dead on the spot."
Thanks much, joj!
This is extremely hard to comprehend for an American.
Try to imagine if this was your country or even your city!
And that it was going to be there indefinitely and there was little that you can do except try to be extremely careful to slightly reduce chances of being killed...........or move to Canada.
"Adele survived the ordeal. The terrorists shot into her house, but she didn't make a sound. Meanwhile, her son-in-law and her two little granddaughters were in an apartment nearby. Two terrorists burst into the apartment and the son-in-law shot both of them dead on the spot."
A good reason for the citizenry to have guns. IMHO
"A good reason for the citizenry to have guns. IMHO"
For sure, cutworm!
Added this above:
Holy Land stretches from Egypt to Syria
Living faiths are part of the land
Nowhere on earth is more sanctified than the segment of the Middle East known as the Holy Land. In this sacred space, the main monotheistic faiths believe, God entered into a relationship with the human race.
https://www.seetheholyland.net/what-is-this-holy-land/
At St. Alphonsus Catholic School in the Detroit area, me and my 5 younger siblings studied the historical religious events in The Holy Land for 12 years!
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/world/iron-dome-israel-defense-explained-intl-dg/index.html
As thousands of rockets have rained down on Israel, the country has been relying once again on the Iron Dome system to protect its citizens.
The missile defense system is one of the most important tools in Israel’s arsenal and has saved countless civilian lives over various conflicts in the last decade, analysts say. It is highly effective. The Israel Defense Forces said the system boasted a 95.6% success rate during a rocket salvo fired by Islamic Jihad in May.
Development on the Iron Dome first began in 2007. After tests in 2008 and 2009, the first Iron Dome batteries were deployed in 2011. The system has been upgraded several times since.
MY DENMARK FRIEND JUST INFORMED ME OF THIS MOATS SHOW EPISODE. I'D NEVER HEARD OF THE PROGRAM. (I GOT SENT A FACEBOOK LINK, BUT ~ I FOUND IT ON YOU TUBE)
INTERVIEW: Reaping the whirlwind / SCOTT RITTER
As Scott implied in the video Jean linked to, Bibi with his far right radical views has largely been responsible for Israel’s overly aggressive approach to the Palestinians for a good number of years and is thus hurting the country’s image. The image was much better during much of its existence, especially going back to when much more moderate folks were in charge like Rabin, Peres, and Golda. And many of the citizens don’t at all like Bibi due to his extreme views. Any criticism of Israel for being too harsh on the Palestinians should imo instead be aimed at the radicals in charge rather than the country or even the politicians as a whole. But unfortunately the image of a country is tied too much with the image of its leaders(s). Hopefully Bibi will be voted out of office in the near future although that’s probably not likely anytime soon.
This reminds me of Iran. A large portion of Iranians (Persians) can’t stand the radical leadership and are actually largely pro Western. Whereas the radical Iranian leadership is understandably considered bad news by the West, that doesn’t at all apply to most of the citizenry. Another example is Trump. Just because he was our leader, that didn’t mean that his radical views were shared by most US citizens thank goodness.
I’m very pleased with Biden’s current strong support for our great and important ally, Israel, especially at this terrible time. But I bet Biden isn’t a Bibi fan.
Although many of them will deny it, some hatred for Israel from especially the far left is based on antisemitism. They veil it as hatred of Israel or its leadership rather than antisemitism. That is a problem. Being against Israel’s continued existence is antisemitism, plain and simple.
Thanks for explaining that, Larry for us that have not followed it very closely or at all.
At MarketForum, the ideal mindset is to celebrate our uniqueness, especially our many nationalities and share information related to them for others to enjoy and appreciate!
joj recently started one of our best threads ever with that theme in mind!
Jewish People
10 responses |
Started by joj - Aug. 21, 2023, 7:43 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/98420/
This thread gave me the idea to add another sentence to my mission statement here:
https://www.marketforum.com/about/
Share information about different cultures and celebrate diversity, while learning about our brothers and sisters from different places, different political parties and different backgrounds WITH OPEN, LOVING MINDS!
WxFollower - That post was pretty articulate and compelling. I particularly liked the comparisons of the Palestinian citizenry with that of the Iranian.
The only tweak I'd comment on was the Character of Bibi being radical. He is right-wing alright. But the radicals are gaining political strength in Israel. By radical, I refer to the religious zealots (not all religious Jews) who want to blow up the Dome of the Rock Mosque and replace it with the 3rd temple to help bring on the Messiah. For all of Israel's history, they have been kept at bay by liberal and conservative governments alike. God help us all.
Thanks, joj, and I appreciate the correction. So, I’ll go with you and consider Bibi more of a mainstream right winger instead of radical. Yeah, what you’re saying about the true radicals does sound very scary.
Thanks very much, Larry and joj for sharing those insightful words so that we can try to understand the complicated dynamics better.
Hamas (UK: /hæˈmæs, ˈhæmæs/, US: /hɑːˈmɑːs, ˈhɑːmɑːs/; Arabic: حماس, romanized: Ḥamās, IPA: [ħaˈmaːs]; an acronym of حركة المقاومة الإسلاميةḤarakah al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, lit. 'Islamic Resistance Movement')[34] is a Sunni-Islamic fundamentalist,[c]militant,[36] and nationalist organization in Palestine.[d] Hamas is widely considered the "dominant political force" within Palestinian society.[38][39][40]
The Hamas movement emerged out of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1987, shortly after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel. It won the 2006 Palestinian legislative election,[41] campaigning in its manifesto on using "armed resistance to end the occupation",[42] and became the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip following the 2007 Battle of Gaza.[43][44] Israel and Hamas have engaged in several wars of varying intensity.[45] The organization holds a majority in the parliament of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). It rejects a proposed two-state solution to the conflict and advocates for the destruction of Israel, instead promoting "an uncompromising position on the creation of a Palestinian state based on Islamic fundamentalism" in a polity created from a unified de jure Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.[46][47]
Hamas' religious fundamentalist objectives, opposition to a two-state solution, and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah has led the organization to receive widespread popularity among Palestinian citizens.[48][49] It has a social service wing, Dawah, and a military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.[e][f] Hamas usage of human shields[52] (allegedly for propaganda purposes)[53] and deliberate infliction of terror to achieve its objectives — including hostage taking and violence against civilian populations — is controversial, with many countries designating it as terrorist organization.[g]
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Who would NOT call Hamas a terrorist organization???
Israel not only has the right to defend itself, it also has no choice but to obliterate an enemy like this in order for survival. Thank God that they at least have the power and determination to accomplish that against Hamas but the tremendous cost and atrocities to Israel and innocent people on both sides is a sad but unavoidable consequence.
The actions of Hamas leave no other choice and its good to witness most of the world strongly supporting Israel right now.
My condolences to the Jewish community, losing the most here but you are a strong people that have been targeted throughout history that have learned how to, not just survive but THRIVE and become the best at many things that are important.
Lots of uncertainty in the future compared to a week ago but we should feel confident that Israel will WIN this war.........
against Hamas that is but what will come next???
YOU MAY NEED TO FIND YOUR TRANSLATE BUTTON... I DID! LOL
FROM MY FRIEND IN DENMARK
THANKS, JOJ I'VE NEVER CONSIDERED BIBI A RADICAL.
IS SHARON STILL LIVING?
Very sadly, this is the REAL threat to Israel's future and its almost impossible for Israel to destroy every location that has enough enriched uranium to prevent Iran from using it against them............and Iran has made it clear they intend to do that:
Iran's Nuclear Timetable: The Weapon Potential
September 21, 2023
https://www.iranwatch.org/our-publications/articles-reports/irans-nuclear-timetable-weapon-potential
Iran's enriched uranium stockpile already contains sufficient uranium to fuel at least five nuclear warheads with further enrichment.
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Thoughts from our Jewish community here as well as others are much appreciated on this potential for Israel to be decimated by an Iranian nuclear attack.
Pre emptive strikes at these locations will likely fail to completely eliminate the threat/all the material and it would assure with absolute certainty that Iran will use a nuclear weapon against Israel immediately when they have that ability.......which seems inevitable.
There is no negotiating with these extreme zealots. They decide what they want and you either give it to them or they will die taking you out trying to get it.
FROM THE TIME I WAS 14 YRS. YOUNG, (60 YEARS AGO) I'VE SAID: "IF I LIVE TO REACH THE AVERAGE AGE OF DEATH ~ I BELIEVE I'LL SEE THE END OF THE WORLD, AS WE KNOW IT."
THIS LATEST MESS, JUST MAY BE THE CATALYST FOR IT.
Hopefully that's not the case, Jean.
It would make it so much simpler if all Israel needed to do was annihilate Hamas, the group responsible for these grotesque atrocities that violate our humanity to the core and things could get back closer to how they were.
However, the Middle East is an extremely complicated place with numerous different groups/factions fighting with each other since they were born (and accepted as their way of life/death) and each country different but many see Israel as the common enemy )-:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/10/1204789074/israel-hamas-hezbollah-iran
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Hezbollah is an Iranian group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_(Iran)
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It would take a long time for a person to study all this to understand it very well and even then, there are things that we can't know from just reading internet articles.
A LONG, UT INTERESTING READ... IMO
Former U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross weighs in on Hamas’ attack on Israel and the “missed opportunities” that led to the war.
‘There’s Going to Be a Lot of Soul-Searching in Israel When This Is Over’
Thanks, Jean.
https://coopwb.in/info/israel-nato-membership/
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I have extremely serious problems with NATO regarding the Ukraine war that won't be discussed much or at all in threads related to Israel.
The biggest threat to Israel is a nuclear Iran. The United States has already, likely made it crystal clear to Iran that if they bomb Israel with a nuclear weapon, we will decimate their country with strategic air strikes using our vastly superior nuclear weapons.
They won't be able to count on Russia as in the past because Russia is about maxed out trying to win its war in Ukraine, which is about the only good thing regarding that war.
One would think that the GOVERNMENT of Iran will not be crazy enough (like these terrorist organizations) to use a nuclear weapon and commit suicide for the future of its country. However, its hard to assume rationality when it comes to anybody/anything in much of the Arab world.
U.S.: The Iran Threat & Options
https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2023/jan/25/us-iran-threat-options
Here's more information to explain an extraordinarily complicated situation.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14630174
https://www.worldatlas.com/maps/palestine
Jihad: Holy or Unholy War?
https://www.unaoc.org/repository/Esposito_Jihad_Holy_Unholy.pdf
This is the case against Israel that is shared by Hamas with other Arab entities/Palestinians. I'm just trying to learn more and sharing the information.
https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html
MIKE ~ I have extremely serious problems with NATO regarding the Ukraine war
WELLLL, MIKE ~ I HAVE EXTREMELY SERIOUS PROBLEMS WITH NATO ~ PERIOD!!
The urgent imperative to maintain NATO’s nuclear deterrence
"The dismal performance of Russia’s conventional forces in the early days of the war in Ukraine risks convincing some in NATO that the future Russian threat to the Alliance can be deterred primarily via NATO’s conventional superiority, and that enhancing deterrence of Russian nuclear use in a future conflict is therefore no longer a high priority. This is a dangerous fallacy."
Thanks much, Jean!
I've been spending the week researching and learning, with many of these posts just sharing that so that others can learn with me.
Before understanding anything, we first need to spend many hours maximizing our knowledge about it.
Here's another relevant item. How does Israel manage to survive in this environment? A small country surrounded by massive numbers of Muslims that hate them, who have access to unlimited funding from oil reserves?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
Israel's quality higher education and the establishment of a highly motivated and educated populace is largely responsible for ushering in the country's high technology boom and rapid economic development by regional standards.[37] The country has developed a strong educational infrastructure and a high-quality business startup incubation system for promoting cutting edge new ideas to create value-driven goods and services. These developments have allowed the country to create a high concentration of high-tech companies across the country's regions. These companies are financially backed by a strong venture capital industry.[38] Its central high technology hub, the "Silicon Wadi", is considered second in importance only to its Californian counterpart.[39][40][41][42] Numerous Israeli companies have been acquired by global corporations for their reliable and quality corporate personnel
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This lines up exactly with my personal experiences and views:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/98420/#98429
The Jews have managed to thrive in the Middle East only because they are extraordinarily brilliant people. I'm convinced that much of this is genetic to go with their incredible work ethic and discipline/determination.
As a chess coach to 4,000+ students, it's crystal clear that some kids have gifted brains that are instantly able to comprehend the complex relationships between the chess pieces. Those kids WILL greatly outperform others that spend the same amount of time learning chess and sometimes those that spend MORE time than them. This is an indisputable fact that I've experienced repeatedly for 27 years.
And those gifted brains are most often seen in students with high achieving parents. It's MUCH MORE than their great work ethic being passed on to Junior which can greatly contribute to success in life.
6 and 7 year olds learning chess for the first time aren't impacted much by whatever work ethic they are developing.
My youngest son has a gifted brain. I explained the rules of chess to him 1 time when he was in preschool and never had to correct him for moving the pieces wrong after that. He was beating kids 3 years older that had played chess longer than him immediately. Not because I was teaching him but because he was born that way.
Anyway, the point is that an extraordinarily high number of Jews have brains like this and their DNA/brains are passed on to their children. I'm in a very unique position to KNOW THIS with absolute certainty.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-725015
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Added: when my older son was learning to count by 5s to 100 in 2nd grade, the gifted chess player was still in preschool but I‘d already taught him to count to 100. I loved teaching my young sons and thought it would be fun to teach both of them how to count by 5s, even though one of them was 3 years from having that lesson at school.
They both got it but the son in preschool immediately counted backwards by 5s from 100 as fast as the numbers would come out of his mouth and it blew my mind!
We use the exact same part of our brains for analytical thinking/math and for playing chess.
The older one was gifted in language that comes from a different past of the brain. I had him on the 2nd grade reading level Hooked on Phonics book when he was in preschool. His friends in kindergarten, that couldn’t read yet, thought that he was making up the words, pretending to read.
MIKE ~ "How does Israel manage to survive in this environment? A small country surrounded by massive numbers of Muslims that hate them, who have access to unlimited funding from oil reserves?"
Conflict in Israel has been a reality whenever Israel has existed as a nation. Whether it was the Egyptians, Amalekites, Midianites, Moabites, Ammonites, Amorites, Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, or Romans, the nation of Israel has always been persecuted by its neighbors. Why is this? According to the Bible, it is because God has a special plan for the nation of Israel, and Satan wants to defeat that plan. Satanically influenced hatred of Israel—and especially Israel’s God—is the reason Israel’s neighbors have always wanted to see Israel destroyed.
What is Israel’s role in the end times?
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EZEKIEL 5-7 ~ "5 Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.
6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;"
This week, I've mainly been spending as much time to learn and understand the extraordinarily complicated history here. People have spent much of their lives doing that and have contrasting views that see things in ways that I can't.
But I CAN be objective, which is something almost impossible to do for many with extraordinarily, emotional and politically charged topics.
If I would have read this comprehensive, fact based article a week ago, the impact would be different than today.
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There's no denying that the Palestinians got messed over badly and have a good case for their just cause.
I wonder how joj and Larry feel about this.
However, what Hamas did basically obliterated any reason to have a civilized discussion on the topic. OK, so civilized discussions were leading to nowhere and had no chance of ever accomplishing much.
However, regardless of how divided our differences and how right I might be or how wrong you might be, responding by slaughtering and kidnapping as many people as possible from the other side (beheading babies) completely trumps everything else.
People like that deserve the death penalty, not a place at the negotiating table.
If you want to sincerely negotiate for peace, each side gives the other one something. I realize that Israel has just taken the Gaza strip and West Bank and the other side wants it back, so its very complicated.
However, If one sides negotiation tactic is to brutally slay 1,000 of the weakest of the other side, they have just slammed to door on negotiations and FORCED the other side to react by defending themselves. No other choice!
It also shows the mentality and hatred of Hamas and the extent that they will go to in the future. The only way to protect your loved ones and country from that is to:
1. Give them most of what they want
2. Exterminate them
There may be 100 times more civilized Arabs, PALESTINIANS than those militants that are in Hamas and Hezbollah.
Those civilized Arabs, PALESTINIANS if they could think objectively would realize that exterminating Hamas and Hezbollah is the best thing that could happen for their cause!
Even if their JUST cause still seems like a pipe dream, at least they are standing up for humanity and core principles that far exceed the importance of nationalities and regional disputes.
The world has rallied to support Israel here, as it should. Is that what displaced Palestinians or those under a regime that they hate wanted?
BLAME HAMAS not Israel!
Mike,
I will post later on this.
I admit my bias here, but I will try to present cogent arguments using facts.
Looking forward to it!
Correction to my previous verbiage, which was improper.
"Those civilized Arabs, PALESTINIANS if they could think objectively would realize that exterminating Hamas and Hezbollah is the best thing that could happen for their cause!"
The Palestinian cause is a just one. They deserve to run their own lives.
So one of the rallying cries of the Palestinians is "End the occupation." Well, we tried that in Gaza. Israel forcefully evicted 10,000 Jewish settlers from Gaza under Ariel Sharon in the early 2000s. He then removed all Israeli troops. Basically, Israel said, "Here, take it. Make something of it." What followed? Hamas and a barrage of rockets.
Similarly in Southern Lebanon. Israel had occupied it to create a buffer zone to protect its northern civilians. When Israel left, Hezbollah filled the vacuum, and with Iran's support, has been a violent threat from the north.
Israel is not without sin. There is one policy that has been advanced by both conservative and liberal Israeli governments that I am against both on moral grounds and practical grounds. That is settling the West Bank with Israeli Jews. Mind you, I am in favor of continued Israeli military presence (occupation) in the West Bank, because, without a military presence, the radical and violent elements of the Palestinian people will take over. But I am against the settlers. Why? Because the policy closes the door on any strong Palestinian leader arising in the future (like Sadat of Egypt) and making a peace deal. The settlers are referred to as "facts on the ground". They are not easily removed. I think this policy is to placate the religious Jews who think the Old Testament says God gave it to us so it is ours. Sorry, I cannot back that. They have political power and given that they make more babies than secular Israeli Jews, their power is steadily growing.
The 2-state solution: Where Jews live is Israel, and where Palestinians live should be the state of Palestine. That was basically the deal that was offered to Arafat by Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton in 2000. Arafat turned it down and was welcomed home as a hero (Idiots!). He turned it down because unlike Rabin and Sadat, who gave their lives for a chance at peace, Arafat was a coward. He would have been killed by radical Muslims who believe that all of the land that is Israel is sacred Moslem territory. (connect the dots - 7 million dead Jews). The 2 state solution is, for all intents and purposes, dead. The next rallying cry for the Palestinians will be a one-state solution where they get to vote and take power as their population outgrows the Israelis.
Hamas - Fatah Conflict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
Hamas killed 600 Palestinian political opponents (Fatah - who favors negotiation with Israel). Many of these political murders were conducted by throwing them off the 6th floor of rooftops. I don't tend to dehumanize my enemy. Let's just say their political culture isn't as evolved as Western democracies.
The last point to make is that Hamas, in power in Gaza since 2006, has been brainwashing their children from the age when they can first speak that they should kill Jews. 50% of the population of Gaza is under 18 years of age. Like the Hitler youth, they will not throw off Hamas from power because they have been thoroughly indoctrinated.
I should also say, Israel should attempt, if possible, to mitigate the humanitarian disaster that is looming in Gaza. That is easy for me to say sitting comfortably in America.
THERE'S NOT A COUNTRY ON THIS EARTH, THAT HASN'T CARRIED OUT HEINOUS ACTS ON THEIR "ENEMIES"... OF ANY AGE.... FROM THE UNBORN TO THE DIEING ELDERLY.
IN DUE TIME, IT WILL ALL VERY ABRUPTLY END.
Thanks much for sharing that very informed and objective response.
Helping all of us to understand this better, especially me.
I think that very few Americans understand the extremely complicated history of this area and even fewer that can explain it as well as you and Larry have generously done this week.
We're blessed to have you guys sharing your thoughts here, especially with your mind tied up worrying about your own family and connection to the Jewish community.
Jean,
You make a good point about heinous acts committed by most nations at some point in their past.
However, with time, the human race has become more and more civilized as we have evolved. People in the past did not have as much access to information that educates us in a way that CAN alter cold hearts and CAN cause us to be more compassionate.
However, as joj mentioned, brainwashing and indoctrination still exists and in many realms, exploiting the advances in technology have created even more power for gatekeepers to impose their belief systems on others.
NOT TO "STIR THE POT", BUT... I WATCHED THIS, EARLY THIS MORNING. WHAT A CONCEPT. I DON'T AGREE, THO'
“Jesus Didn’t Preach Christianity, but Islam!” - British Ex-Christian’s Revert Story!
26 MINUTES
MIKE ~ LOOK AT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY AMERICANS, JUST IN OUR LIFE TIME.
WWII ~ VIETNAM ~ MIDDLE EAST. NO MATTER WHERE WE GO! PEOPLE ARE, IMO... BORN WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT & WRONG. THE HEINOUS ACTS WON'T STOP, UNTIL THE "ADULTS IN THE ROOM" STOP TEACHING IT.
Great points, Jean!
Human beings are greatly flawed and when flawed people obtain too much power, it's bad news for alot of innocent people.
Joj said very early ITT (on Oct 7, day of Hamas attack):
“Hamas is being condemned by most of the international community. Within 3 days Israel will be condemned by the same countries for using excessive force in its response.”
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joj was unfortunately right and that was just the start. And when I say “unfortunately”, I don’t mean that they don’t deserve at least some condemnation for excessive force. The war, itself, is what’s unfortunate. This is a very complicated situation and I don’t have the answer. That’s why I’m largely remaining quiet in addition to being overwhelmed with personal obligations.
Thanks much, Larry!
It's so tragic for so many.
Most of us are extremely fortunate to be observing it from a distance. But with completely different mentalities.
Being Jewish and watching this as you and joj are makes it much tougher than people like me. I know that my position, which is to shine the light of day on key elements we don't hear/read about much in the U.S. and is mostly the Palestinian side clearly makes everybody else here reading it unhappy.
Please know that I really hate subjecting you and others to this and its extremely saddening from a personal standpoint to see this happening to a country that has been special to me for 60 years.
Better to know the truth based on inconvenient facts than to not understand what the authentic reasons are for why we are here and where we are going.
The most important thing is to not let disagreements interfere with good relationships. I realize that some people can't avoid that and would prefer to just hang out at their favorite echo chambers listening to things that they want to believe in.
That's fine, if people like the "ignorance is bliss" approach for them. Except that's also why our country is so extremely divided and getting worse. I'm here to fight hard against that not feed it!
Both sides have a lot of things wrong and a lot of things right. Picking just one side, as most do means that you are rejecting alot of things right and accepting alot of things wrong.
If you went to the grocery store and shopped in the vegetable section and half of the fruit was rotten, while the other half fresh, you would pick just the fresh stuff and reject all the rotten stuff.
It's completely different with politics. If your an R for instance and a batch of rotten bananas comes in but Fox news or Donald Trump are selling them, you buy everything and convince yourself its ALL fresh fruit.
Fox sometimes does have fresh bananas but most people can't even tell the difference anymore because they give a free pass to EVERYTHING their trusted source sells since that source always tells them things they want to hear (these bananas are fresh-even when they are rotten).
However, you are not like that, Larry!!!!
To your massive credit, you have shown over and over, the ability to step outside of that negative cognitive bias mentality that afflicts most people, which is extraordinarily rare and a gift in today's age.
Thanks for checking in with another very classy, objective response to let us know you're not stewing over discussions telling the other side. I greatly look forward to hearing more from you.