There was a big explosion that occurred a few hours ago at a Gaza hospital apparently causing many casualties. Hamas initially blamed it on Israel from a bomb dropped from a plane. This immediately lead to widespread criticism of and demonstrations against Israel:
However, soon afterward, the IDF claimed it was due to a misfired rocket fired from Gaza toward Israel by Islamic Jihad, another terrorist organization:
The following link’s video seems to support the IDF’s version:
We should know more in the hours and days to come. But at this point, I have no reason to believe Hamas since they’re a very untrustworthy terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel out, unlike Hamas Israel wouldn’t target a hospital, Israel doing so would result in about the worst possible PR for them (as it actually did initially), and the footage I posted.
What do others think? Also, could it have been an intentional rocket strike by IJ to cause negative publicity against Israel?
Jordan cancels Biden summit after hundreds killed in Gaza hospital blast
Jordan has cancelled a summit it was scheduled to host in Amman on Wednesday with United States President Joe Biden and the Egyptian and Palestinian leaders to discuss Gaza, Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi has said.
Safadi said the meeting would be held at a time when the parties could agree to end the “war and the massacres against Palestinians”, blaming Israel with its military campaign for pushing the region to “the brink of the abyss”.
LARRY ~ WITH SO MUCH "MIS-INFORMATION", WE MAY NEVER KNOW THE TRUTH. I PRAY IT WASN'T INTENTIONALLY DONE, BY ANYONE! HOW HORRID!
It appears that what the IDF said is what happened: an errant terrorist rocket. Also, the really good news is that the earlier reports of 500+ being killed there appear to be wrong:
Video animation evidence in support of it having been caused by a terrorist rocket as opposed to Israel plane dropping a bomb:
Thanks much for the great information at this thread.
Like Larry stated, the propaganda will make it almost impossible to apply objective discernment.
When you have 2 extremely divided ,sides like this, what happens is that most people on each side will just believe almost everything that supports what they WANT to believe because of their cognitive bias and assumptions.
It’s an impossible strong psychological factor that defines humans that’s not fixable, especially in the midst of the indoctrinated hate of the Middle East.
If the rocket came from Israel, it’s a horrific act as seen by their enemy….……to be amplified using propaganda into an atrocity that justifies their cause and vilifies their hated enemy.
If the same rocket doing the same damage came from Hamas, the same side sees it as a mistake that only caused minor damage.
Thanks much, Jean!
This is just1 incident(with thousands of bombs flying and many thousands dead) this month, in a massive war that is only a part of a century+ long relationship but look how the world focus's on it, especially because the media incredibly amplifies it for their ratings.
You would think that this 1 incident defines who is right and who is wrong about the entire war or relationship.
One side, especially uses it as a battle cry against the other one and for inspiration.
Sadly, what this shows is the extreme gloom ridden, cynical and bleak mentality of this hate driven realm.
Since bombings in the midst of this ongoing war, along with their death and destruction will continue, every time it happens, it only adds to the expanding and intensifying hate. This was only 1 example of how it will continue to be used, with each side interpreting everything in one sided fashion. Often, 1 side will be completely wrong about the facts but it doesn't matter. Their side will only believe things that support what they want to believe and what their sources tell them to believe.
Like with the war in Ukraine. Propaganda is king right now. People are completely captured by the propaganda about Ukraine but see how its being used here will still not be able to understand how THEY also get pulled in. In a realm like this, authentic facts only matter to the few objective independents that are not caught up by their politics, emotions, nationalities and cognitive bias that tells them what to believe.
On this topic, I admit a strong alignment with Israel that makes me automatically believe stories that support them but a desire to also be critical of them when justified.
Regardless, one has to ask. What event or actions will need to happen to DE escalate this?
There is no way to resolve it. Too much indoctrinated hatred. Too much extremely bad history. It will never be resolved in my life time. Not a chance.
The only reasonable objective right now is to stop the current escalation.
Escalation will lead to events which have the potential to be far worse than where we are now. If Iran enters the battle, for instance. The short term outlook points towards more escalation and nobody can predict the path forward.
The one side that I feel has the ability to control that path is Israel. They have more power militarily and with that, also more power to punish or not punish their enemies.
The more they punish their enemies in Gaza, the worse it will get. 100% certainty on that. From now on, every event that involves Israel killing people in Palestine will be potentially headline news to inspire the other side. Enough of this piling up will reach a level that justifies Iran and others to step in.
The more they show restraint and less the punish their enemies, the LESS the escalation will be.
+++++++++++++++++++
Israel has the best opportunity to rise up and stop the escalation. There's always the chance that a strong leader of a group that represents Palestine could come forward and take the first step in DE escalation. Small chance but its possible.
The current environment is 1,000 times more vulnerable and sensitive to any sort of news compared to a month ago. Something that happened earlier this year related to this relationship might not have made headline news.
Now, we have 24 hour, minute by minute reporting and interpreting (especially by the ratings and agenda driven media) with both sides looking for opportunities to capitalize and exploit the news to make things worse by telling the world why the other side is evil and must be destroyed.
With so many of the gatekeepers/sources of information and narratives having this much control and being inspired by their causes and this being so volatile/explosive, let's hope and pray that events will not lead to something much worse than this.
Israel has completely lost the moral high ground this last week and now their country is committing the atrocity with its perpetual bombing and killing of people in Gaza, many are women and children. 3 times the number they had killed and growing fast.
President Biden is expected to present a $100 billion funding package for Ukraine and Israel to Congress today.
metmike: MOSTLY FOR UKRAINE!!! Our president exploited this volatile global event to double the amount of money he thinks that he can get out of Congress because they must vote for his Ukraine aid in order to get aid for Israel.
There is no telling how bad this is going to get and our president is much more concerned about keeping his war against Russia funded!!!
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-ed6875f15ea0d2bc196e4033b54b7194
Israel’s military says it is reviewing reports on casualties after Hamas says the attack on the Greek Orthodox Saint Porphyrius Church in Gaza City killed and injured a ‘large number’ of people.
+++++
And the details of each bomb and how many were killed by that 1 bomb or whether that was 1 of the thousands Coming from Israel are debated with insane absurdity.
Israel supporters pretend that Israel is still being victimized when they get blamed for a bomb that didn’t come from them that landed near a hospital.
What about the other 2,999 strikes that have indiscriminately killed over 3,000 human beings, most of them having nothing to do with Hamas??
Israel is bombing the crap out of Gaza, taking mostly innocent lives to get a few Hamas.
Probably destroying a great deal of Hamas property but Hamas people are certainly not hanging out in their usual locations. And Innocent people have no idea where the specific Israel targets are in Gaza.
Hamas doesn’t have signs up in front of their locations that say “Welcome to the home of Hamas, where the only good Jew is a dead Jew”
Hamas is mingling with the general population. Of course they are. So to kill them with long distance strikes, by definition you must kill 10+ times more innocent people.
Israel doesn’t care and that is exactly the entire problem the past week+
When they send their ground troops in, they will hold back on the bombing where their troops are so they don’t kill their own people.
Innocent Palestinians are ok to kill, though.
NO THEY ARE NOT!
Mike,
With all due respect, you draw conclusions as factual based on plausible logic.
"Israel doesn't know where Hamas is so they have to kill 10x innocent people to get one Hamas."
Plausible, yes. But ...
1) Israel has a network of informants.
2) Israel always measures their success on how few innocent people they kill (and yes, innocent people die). That is why they regularly drop fliers to alert the innocent about impending strikes.
3) Hamas measures their success on how many innocent Jews they kill.
Where I come from people who behead babies in front of their mothers and then post the video on social media are the bad guys.
Where I come from people who behead babies in front of their mothers and then post the video on social media are the bad guys.
Amen
Rock solid facts, joj.
Dropping fliers to alert innocent people isn't protecting them anymore than Hamas that can also read flyers.
Where can the innocent people go? They area trapped. Egypt closed the southern border.
Why should innocent people have to leave their homes and country because another country telsl them that they are bombing it? Then, when they are unable to leave, that country justifies it with "well, we warned you, BOMBS AWAY!"
Then: "Oh, sorry about that for killing your mother or your son, we warned you and we minimized the deaths of innocent people. You'll just have to trust us on that one"
++++++++++
How many of those are Hamas, joj?
How many are women and children?
4,000(so far) is triple the number killed by Hamas and there are 10 times that number that had their home destroyed and 1,000 times more homeless in Gaza than in Israel. No food, water and electricity to even more than that.
Those are rock solid facts. Even if you don't want to believe that particular source and it was slightly less than that its still always going to be MANY more innocent people killed by Israel than the number of Jews slayed in the brutal murders of Oct. 7th.
No question that Hamas is pure evil and as I mentioned in a previous email, if I had a wish, it would be for every one of them to be slowly tortured to death..........but we live in the REAL world.
You know how fond I am personally of you and Larry, along with enormous respect for your sharp minds and wonderful contributions that include being able to see the other side.
So it was extremely difficult for me to have to use these facts to finally condemn Israel with gusto. Honestly, I refrained for several days out of respect for you guys here but I am forced to tell the truth, especially the inconvenient truths about things that I, personally don't want to believe but it's still the truth.
I'm so sorry for the pain that these events are causing for you guys and the entire Jewish community.
But also for the pain that Israel is causing for the other side too, which my open mind can contemplate and use to discern the truth. Rationalizing why this is justified by Israel is not reducing their pain one bit or their losses and sadly, for those that do the rationalizing, they are totally missing the profound impact that Israel's bombings are having on the world that is watching.
Only those that are the strongest supporters of Israel under all circumstances, regardless of the situation are not being moved.......IN THE WRONG direction.
I get that you have family living in Israel. However, they are at a much higher risk AFTER Israel did these bombings because they have served to inspire God knows how many NEW people that hate Israel to wipe them all out. People from around the world that want that, which didn't want that before.
My wife's closest business partner from Toronto is a brilliant Jewish scientist that travels at least 2 times a year to see his family in Israel. She talks to him almost daily when they are working on one of his new inventions. I have been part of the conversations. He is usually the happiest, funniest guy around. After the Oct. 7th brutal killings, she says that "I've never seen him like this".
I recognize your pain from seeing it around me and can try to imagine how horrible it must be because I try to always understand what other people are thinking as a top priority when practicing the scientific method.
At the same time, my endocrinologist, a Muslim who came here 20 years ago has much of his family living in Palestine. Last Tuesday at my appointment we never talked about my health. We only talked about the Middle East.
He is honestly the most sweet, kind and soft spoken doctor that I've ever known. He cares every bit as much about his family as you do yours, joj! None of them are Hamas.
There are 2 sides to the story and I am just trying to tell both of them with authenticity and extremely appreciate your views and especially others that disagree with me.
I really wish that I could make this go away. The Ukraine war has been very upsetting and now we have this which is much worse in many ways.
There will eventually be peace in Ukraine(I was hoping we were getting close but am not sure now).
There will never be peace in the Middle East between Israel and her neighbors Too much indoctrinated hate, to use your words in another wonderful post.
The bombings of Gaza this month, in that environment are just so, so, so damaging to the perception/narrative that Israel is the victim here or has the moral high ground.
Regardless of whether you agree with the details for reasoning of that mentality it just IS.
The thing that hurts the most is to know that the thousands of strikes into Gaza the past 2 weeks will NEVER be forgotten by many millions of those that don't feel like you or me about Israel. They will serve as THE major motivator from this point forward to hurt Israel and in the case of evil groups(that will always be there) a huge recruitment narrative and huge incentive for them to ramp up their efforts to obliterate the Jews and Israel.
In the past, the motivators might be X, Y and Z which often were based on things that happened many decades ago and have to be retold for those not familiar with the history.
However, this just happened in real time, when we had the most advanced technology to show it and report it.
I copied just 1 story above out of thousands with thousands of pictures. There's no hiding from that or pretending Israel didn't do it.
I am so sorry to have this opinion but Israel appears to be on a course to having just made its most catastrophic blunder in history. With all my heart I wish this were not true )-:
Thanks much, cutworm!
As I have mentioned, my personal justice for Hamas, in my dreams would be slowly torturing every last one of them to death............but without killing thousands of innocent people that include babies and women.
Dead = Dead.
1,300 dead from beheading and bullets to the head is still a smaller number than 4,000 dead from bombs.
Let me put it to you a different way.
If you had the choice of having 1 family member beheaded or 3 family members killed from a bomb, which one would you pick?
And above that, what exactly is being accomplished by those 4,000 additional deaths?
They didn't take away 1 of the 1,300 dead Jews.
And that 4,000 is going up, we assume when Israel's army moves in. At that point, they will have the ability to differentiate between bad guys and innocent victims. Bombs can't do that!
It’s an impossibly tough dynamic with no fix.
You can‘t fix indoctrinated hate.
However, in my opinion, you can do things that don‘t feed the existing hate that make it worse.
I’ve never been tuned into this situation before this month and only have hundreds of accounts of the history from different sources, which all of my life have been strongly biased to telling the Jewish perspective.
I actually don’t remember reading an account telling it any other way.
So thats the mindset which strongly defined my thinking, 2 weeks ago.
This is the first time in my life to witness the events first hand while paying attention to all the contributing factors.
Its very sad for me to report facts that I don’t want to be true, especially knowing that others here don’t want them to be true.
Israel has done exactly what the terrorists intentionally provoked them to do.
The very large global network of pro Palestinian(anti Israel/Jewish) people in the many millions have united and been incentivized , entirely because of this response.
When the response by Israel is over, this massive network will have witnessed their versions of things they can never UN see, playing over and over in their minds and in terrorist recruitment centers.
It makes me sad to know and share that.
It appears to be entirely from horrible blunders by those running the current government in Israel.
First to allow this to happen to a country that prides itself and leads the world in advanced technologies. This was a catastrophic failure and embarrassment that seems to have led to the OVER reaction.
That last paragraph is the only part of my statements that speculates.
Again, my heart and bias aligns with Israel and the Jewish communities/families around the world that I'm so fond of and have enormous admiration for.
I wish that we could turn the calendar page back 2 months and be having this wonderful conversation, instead of the current ones.
Jewish People
10 responses |
Started by joj - Aug. 21, 2023, 7:43 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/98420/
The world is a tough place. Many people, maybe even most people are happiest when believing in things that they want to be the truth. That's just how it is.
Mike,
The Israeli military takes huge risks with the lives of its soldiers to minimize civilian loss of life. More than any army in the world. That is a metric for Israel.
I may have missed it in your posts, but I only saw what Israel should NOT do (bombing).
Would you care to suggest what Israel SHOULD do? Because it sounds like you are advocating pacifism. "Fighting only makes it worse for Israel down the road".
I'm pretty sure that would not be effective in the short-term, medium-term, or long-term
So what would you do if you were Israel?
Like I stated several times, there is no GOOD solution that will fix this perfectly.
The best situation as I thought to make clear multiple times was to avoid making it MUCH worse by killing 3 times as many as Israel had killed by the brutality of Hamas.
But I wasn't more specific and apologize for that.
There were numerous ways to avoid making it MUCH worse but the #1 was to have LESS bombing and LESS than 3 times as many deaths.
Less obliterating of innocent peoples homes and destroying of NON Hamas properties, which is the vast majority of damage.
Every death, less than 4,000( 3 times the amount killed in Israel) was a better solution and a real human beings life saved......down to X number (which I would argue should have been kept close to what the loss of life was to Israel to justify it) .
If Israel killed 1,500 for instance, Palestinians and others can't claim that Israel went way overboard compared to their own losses, especially with the military on the way.
4,000 was going way overboard in my opinion with the military on the way.
They violated all humanitarian and civilized country standards with their unnecessarily deadly OVER reaction to the horrible attacks on Israel.
If this was just a contest of lobbing bombs to decide who wins the war and 1 side eventually cries "uncle" than bombs only might be the only way to come out on top.
But that's NOT the case. Israel had and has a much better alternative that they decided to NOT use so far for some unknown, tragically wrong reasoning.
The military is going in and they can differentiate between innocent people and Hamas bad guys. They had that life preserving method from the get go but instead, choose to exploit their massive advantage with artillery missiles because they could destroy specific targets and show how superior their military is, while claiming disingenuously that they were taking precautions to save lives.
Many less bombs would have saved lives. 4,000 dead, mostly innocent people speaks for them killing far too many and makes their "saving as many lives as possible" rings totally hollow to anybody thinking critically.
Very sadly, those 4,000+ dead, actually will be speaking for years to come and be used to make things MUCH worse for Israel in the future. They are going to pay an extremely severe price for this.
For every evil Hamas member they kill with this war, there will be 10+ times the number inspired by it with similar objectives because of what Israel did to people living in Gaza.
The amount of additional hatred generated by Israel's over reactions is, maybe 1,000 times greater than the hatred that Hamas generated from their heinous act and I am so sorry to state this.
My alternative solution has Israel's future in mind, not as much the people in Gaza. Regardless of whether you think 4,000 dead is justified, joj, s over the next several years, killing that many of INNOCENT PEOPLE in Gaza is going to come back to bite them very badly.
Less bombs and, lets say only 1,500 dead people in Gaza, dead, wièj then sending in the military sooner might have meant a higher risk to the miliitary of Israel going in to finish the job.
But Israel choose this path to save, XX number of lives in their military?
Israel has a strong, very skilled/trained military that is the best in the world. Why not use that to minimize lost life of innocent people?
They would have preseved their moral high ground and minimized the massive increase in hatred that lobbing thousands of bombs, killing thousands of INNOCENT people has caused.
Hamas is evil and this was dastardly but Israel blundered the first time with their security failures(or else Hamas outsmarted them). That blunder cost them 1,300 Jewish lives and they really are NOT responsible at all for that. It was 100% the fault of the evil Hamas.
The catastrophic , much bigger strategic blunder did not cost Israel any lives. Their response was 100% by design and they had complete control of their OVER reaction.
Justified or not, I'm telling you with certainty that it was one of and likely THE biggest bad image/public relations disasters for Israel in its long history as viewed by billions of people around the world.
It continues to sadden me to say that, unfortunely this catastrophic blunder of killing thousands of innocent Palestinians, that didn't need to die, live as the entire world read about it and saw images....... means that Israel has made itself a target for years to come and the leaders of Israel right now, are completely at fault.
Israel has not only lost the moral high ground they solidly had after the attacks but they have managed to flip it completely to the Palestinians and their cause having the moral high ground and the innocent residents of Gaza being the MUCH BIGGER victims of Israel.
Hamas is a terrorist group and we've come to understand that evil groups like that will do some of the most diabolical things.
Israel is a country. We hold developed, democratic countries to much higher standards. Especially countries like the United States, France, Germany, Israel and many others.
Trying to compare the actions of a terrorist organization to the actions of a country as if they play by the same rules is ludicrous. Israel violated most civilized and humanitarian standards that countries as great as Israel should abide by.
This was not like the Israel that I've come to know and love. They are usually extremely smart and act based on well thought out plans that have helped them to survive in the long run. This enormous blunder has just a made them a prime target for XX years to come.
Continually repeating that Hamas started it or they were just defending themselves or what else could they do is just completely ignoring all the main points.
You guys are bright. Open your eyes and look at the world's response and try to appreciate why this is a justified response.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-protests-us-embassy-h0a8d106163346b53c0125777e78e8e13
You can find 100 articles similar to this.
How many articles are there about thousands of people protesting Hamas around the world?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/middleeast/protests-palestinian-gaza-middle-east-int/index.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/20/photos-palestine-solidarity-rallies-around-the-world
https://time.com/6326360/europe-palestine-protests-free-speech/
Up to 10,000 people are expected to march through Sydney’s CBD on Saturday afternoon after police green-lit the event
Thousands marched in big cities across the world expressing their support for Palestinians and their frustrations with the U.S. and Israel.
TO ME... HAMAS, ETC. ARE JUST GIANT SIZED BUNCHES OF EVIL RADICALS THAT "SMASH STORE WINDOWS & STEAL WHATEVER THEY CAN GRAB" , BEFORE THEY SET THE PLACE ON FIRE. THERE'S NO CONSEQUENCES TO THE LITTLE RADICALS, SOOO... THEY CONTINUE ON! IF I WERE ON THE RECEIVING END, I'D ELIMINETE THEM & DO MY BEST TO NOT HARM THE INNOCENT.
FOR EVERY ACTION, THERE IS A REACTION.... UNLESS YOU DON'T MIND THE ACTION.
Mike,
Neither you nor I are knowledgeable enough to know the the intricacies of the military response. So I won't pretend to and you shouldn't either.
I would only point out that the numbers thing is at least somewhat arbitrary. "Bad guys killed 1300 so we have to stop at less than 4000."
Suppose you had a neighbor who wanted to kill your whole family. They attacked one day and killed one of your 3 children. You respond with great force and kill 4 of their family members but only knock out 50% of their capabilities leaving the possibility of killing your remaining 2 children a very real possibility. Are you going to stop protecting your other 2 children or attempt to squash that remaining 50%?
As for world opinion. Part of the world is outraged because it is natural for humans to pull for the underdog who is suffering more (and the Palestinians are certainly suffering more). The remainder of the outrage is due to the widespread hatred of Jews in the world.
Thanks, Jean
Actually, my pro Israel bias has caused me to greatly UNDER estimate the country of Israel's OVER reaction atrocity(until just this early morning) by only comparing the most favorable statistic that makes them look the LEAST bad. Deaths. Using that stat to make points that they killed 3 times as many innocent people that Hamas did in response. It's MUCH worse that that, very sadly.
First, let me define where my young life "indoctrinating" comes from.
I've been an extremely pro Israel person from the time that I was a young boy.
In Catholic school, we were taught that the Israelites (todays Jews) were God's chosen people. joj mentioned hate for Jews being indoctrinated into the youth of the Arab world. The way that I was indoctrinated for 12 years, during religion class every day at St. Alphonsus in Dearborn Michigan was tremendous LOVE and a special place for the Israelites, God's chosen people. We cherished the teachings of The Old Testament BEFORE Jesus was born. The same ones embraced by our Jewish brothers and sisters that are in the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
This article is about the Christian Bible. For the related Jewish text, see Hebrew Bible.
"The Old Testament" redirects here. For the 2006 Sunz of Man album, see The Old Testament (album). For the 1962 film, see The Old Testament (film).
The Old Testament (OT) is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew and occasionally Aramaic writings by the Israelites.[1] The second division of Christian Bibles is the New Testament, written in the Koine Greek language.
Then, learning about World War 2 and what happened during the Holocaust and my heart going out went out to the Jewish people and has remained there, even now.
++++++++
Then, in history class during those days, learning about WW-2 and the Holocaust, our hearts went out to the Jews of this age even more. Mine has remained in that place. For my entire life, because of this when there were tumultuous events in the Middle East that featured Jews vs Arabs, I ALWAYS took the side of the Jews, no matter what the story stated.
Despite growing up in the area with the highest Arab Americans in North America, I didn't trust many Arabs in my youth because of this bias and knowing what was going on in the Middle East.
As an adult, I learned that almost all Arab Americans are good people and no longer feel that way. But my first inclination when reading about news in the Middle East, is still to automatically take the side of the Jews.
This is so bad. It just tears me up and I wish it were not so because of what it means in the future.
At least 4,385 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip since the start of the war between Israel and Hamas on 7 October, the territory's Health Ministry has announced.
According to the report, 1,756 children and 967 women are among these deaths. At least 13,561 people have been injured in Gaza, relentlessly bombarded in retaliation for the Hamas attack on Israeli soil.
“In their stated intent to use all means to destroy Hamas, Israeli forces have shown a shocking disregard for civilian lives. They have pulverized street after street of residential buildings killing civilians on a mass scale and destroying essential infrastructure, while new restrictions mean Gaza is fast running out of water, medicine, fuel and electricity. Testimonies from eyewitness and survivors highlighted, again and again, how Israeli attacks decimated Palestinian families, causing such destruction that surviving relatives have little but rubble to remember their loved ones by,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.
+++++++++++++
Whether you want to believe this entirely or think it's being exaggerated, THIS IS THE NEWS!
The news is what determines what people think and use. Look at what the vast majority of Rs think about the 2020 election and related items. Now look at who is way in front in the race for the 2024 election.
This news is based on rock solid facts, regardless of how high or low the numbers are.
After the immediate threat from Hamas was gone in the heinous atrocity that was committed against Israel on October 7th by a group of terrorists, the GOVERNMENT of Israel used that to commit FAR WORSE atrocities against innocent people in the area where Hamas resides.
Not just 3 times the number of dead but 100 times the number injured and 1,000 times the damage, including homeless and without power, food and electricity.
This was an unthinkable war crime by Israel with no regard for humanitarian rights or standards that we cherish as civilized human beings.
There was absolutely no justification To go this far. This was not defending Israel. The Oct. 7th attack was over. This was blind rage and hatred, lashing out and abusing their far superior weapons advantage to get revenge(for an attack that embarrassed them as well as enraged them) that featured the obliteration of almost all innocent people and their communities.
I can't believe this has happened )-:
https://www.reuters.com/world/china-russia-find-common-cause-israel-hamas-crisis-2023-10-20/
+++++++++++
Sadly, they are right in this case. It's especially hard to admit when your side commits the atrocity.
Even more sadly is that this is going to have negative long term consequences for the United States too. With the U.S. backing the wrong horse here(Israel that just committed a state sponsored atrocity) this atrocity continues to strengthen ANTI U.S. interests, especially in the Middle East.......driving closer to Russia, China and North Korea.
That's not speculation. It's already happened and is accelerating.
The best thing that the US could do right now to act before this turns even more ugly and try to apply damage control, would be to broker for peace in Ukraine ASAP!
Unfortunately, the worst president in history is doing the polar opposite. Asking for 60 billion more to continue the war until the half dead or permanently disabled Ukraine army is no longer able to fight.
Let's look at the facts.
I love the United States and Israel.
Our president is responsible for the Ukraine war and has blocked any efforts for peace, starting 6 months BEFORE the war(which caused it).
Now, our #1 ally in the world, that we are strongly supporting/backing just did this.
This is the recipe for ALL of our adversaries to continue to justify ANTI American sentiments and strengthen ties with each other.
There is no unseeing what just happened in Gaza and the world knows who stands behind Israel.
+++++++++++++++++
+++++++++
wow!
Look what the US really stands for!!
Maybe this isn't as clear to you as it should be but the propaganda has convinced us that China, Russia, North Korea, Iran and others are always the bad guys.
No they aren't. Not always. In this situation the United States and Israel are the bad guys committing the state sponsored atrocities with reams of solid fact based evidence. You may not see it because of being bombarded with convincing propaganda 24 hours a day from the government mouth pieces. Much of the rest of the world is able to see the truth.
And this is our leader's position taking us down the current path........he is ramping up the WAR agenda to make it even worse:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/99807/#99808
Biden must immediately change his position and call for peace in Ukraine instead of the 2 years worth of anti Putin, destroy him on the battlefield using United States weapons bs rhetoric.
If we authorize another 60 billion to continue the war in Ukraine, the negative consequences to the US globally are going to accelerate.
The endpoint could be very ugly.
This doesn't even make any sense.
Ukraine is a very corrupt country and its all been about them being part of NATO or not. How can this possibly be worth them joining NATO???
It isn't of course. Biden's involvement in Ukraine's corruption to enrich his family while serving as Vice President (to fix their corruption-ha ha!) has everything to do with it.
THE NEXT TIME WE SEE THAT PICTURE, IT MAY BE RE-CAPTIONED WITH: "PUTIN & XI FIND COMMON CAUSE ON THE ANNIHILATION OF THE USA", OR SOME SUCH WORDING.
Vivek Ramaswami Has the best ideas about what we should do and not do.
1) target the leaders of terrorist group Hammas. Hang their heads in the street, metaphorically.
2) hold back on the ground war till a specific objective is called for
3)understand that a ground invasion by Israel. will spark other nations to get involved against US and Israel
4)separate the issues of Ukraine and Israel, for debate
He seems very well informed. And his ideas make sense to me with what I know at this time
cutworm,
Everything you just stated makes extremely good sense.
I've always liked almost everything about him (but there are a couple of extremes that concern me). He's the smartest, most rational person that can think OUTSIDE the bought and paid for political minds.
I was just getting ready to post that Israel should now postpone their plan to move in on the ground because they have gone way beyond just losing the moral high ground.
Any additional acts of aggression that take more lives in Gaza, no matter what the circumstances will be 10x more damaging to Israel than supportive to them.
After what they just did, it's going to be impossible to sell a narrative that Israel is in Gaza, killing people to defend Israel(when the attack ended on Oct. 7).
That narrative will not work anymore, until Israel suffers another extreme attack which justifies defending against that attacker or like you stated, they have a very defined reasoning and objectives.
What they just did was the complete opposite of that. Bombing the crap out of innocent people is a war crime! Disingenuously stating that they are trying to minimize the loss of innocent lives is complete horse manure. All the evidence says the 100% opposite.
What they did this month in Gaza to the innocent Palestinians, locks in the high likelihood of additional attacks. It's now just a matter of how many weeks, months or years and how many attacks we see on Israel. The blowback from them obliterating innocent people in Gaza is going to be massive. I really hate knowing that and having to share it with people that don't want to read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)
Blowback is a term originating from within the Central Intelligence Agency, explaining the unintended consequences and unwanted side-effects of a covert operation. To the civilians suffering the blowback of covert operations, the effect typically manifests itself as "random" acts of political violence without a discernible, direct cause; because the public—in whose name the intelligence agency acted—are unaware of the effected secret attacks that provoked revenge (counter-attack) against them.[1]
+++++
And the US should also be more strongly condemning Israel for their recent war crimes in Gaza. They won't of course. Fox news has continued all week to be an Israel cheerleader, insisting just the opposite on many shows.
Fox has insisted that Biden is failing because we should be more assertive going after Iran and Israel's enemies, while giving Israel's recent atrocities a complete free pass.
I am good with seeing Iran as an extremely dangerous and evil county but we've totally, 100% lost the moral high ground from the events this month in Gaza.
Now is not the time to go after Israel’s adversaries when the world is strongly against what just happened and seeing things thru the eyes of Israel's adversaries.
Things need to cool off, instead of escalating. Escalating even more, now that many on the other side have united (thanks to Biden) is what we must stop ASAP no matter what it takes.
But then after my previous post I see this interview with a survivor of the festival saying that Gaza citizens also participated in the atrocities.
CUTWORM.... I WATCHED THAT, SHORTLY AFTER IT WAS POSTED. I'VE WATCHED IT NUMEROUS TIMES.
SHE SEEMS TO BE TELLING THE TRUTH,, WITH NO EXAGGERATIONS.
A HORRID SITUATION, ALL THE WAY AROUND, BECAUSE THE TRULY INNOCENT PALESTINIANS, LKE THE INNOCENT ISRAELIS, ARE "IN THE WAY" OF GUNFIRE & MISSLES.