The new mantra from the left in general and Pelosi in particular "The wall is immoral, this is not who we are". Set aside the fact that Pelosi lives in a walled in property. If a wall is ineffective and won't stop illegal immigrants, how can it be immoral?
a politician with morals....its not the immoral part that bothers them, its the effective...holy crap just take the costs the tax payers have provided for pelosis flights back and forth over the last quarter of a century and we are getting there
You raise some interesting questions from time to time Tim
The president needs to get to know you better
Maybe shoot off an e-mail to the WH on occasion
"Maybe shoot off an e-mail to the WH on occasion"
I do.
"If a wall is ineffective and won't stop illegal immigrants, how can it be immoral? "
Or, how can a president, who is an over patriotic nationalist that bumps heads with any foreign countries that get in his(the US) way...........be a traitor, that has sold out the US?
Or, how can the best weather/climate in 1,000 years based on the observations..........be the worst weather/climate and most extreme in thousands of years because of man made climate change?
Or, how can manufacturing jobs that Obama said were gone for good.............have come back the past 2 years because of Obama's policies?
Or, how can a racist president that is only looking out for rich white people........ cause the lowest black unemployment rate in history because of his policies and decriminalize marijuana laws that grossly discriminate against blacks?
Or, how can a president following thru with his campaign promises that he was elected over, like no other president in my life time............. be a president that is pushing for extreme agenda that is personal and anti American?
Or how can a president withdrawing troops from the Middle East(as he promised) supposedly leaving us vulnerable to ISIS and radical Islam attacks...... pass a law that restricts immigration from the highest risk countries because he's discriminating against Muslims?
Or, how can a man attempting to turn this presidency into a dictatorship, firing all sorts of people because they don't line up with his personal belief system and making monumental changes in Obama era rules/regulations......... have authentic, make America great reasoning behind every move?
How can this be?
It's so because on one hand, we have the reality............ and on the other hand, we have the snake oil narrative based on completely twisting/distorting facts in order to effectively convince people that the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of the reality is the reality.
Huly Kwap!!! Do we have a post of the year category?
Great post metmike, I recommend post of the week award. Yes, you can win that award even though your moderator.
If you keep telling people who want to believe something, the same thing that they want to believe long enough, that's the only thing they see.
Since Trump politics can't be graphed or proven, I'll illustrate this principle using authentic science vs speculation based on a busted theory that has been repeated for 20 years using busted global climate models that project catastrophic weather/climate for 100 years.
In the graph below, note the disparity between the slight beneficial warming that is happening at the bottom of the graph which represents the reality/observations and the dangerous warming on all the global computer models above that(straight lines) which is NOT the reality........but is being twisted/distorted to convince us that it IS the reality.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2013/06/epic-fail-73-climate-models-vs-observations-for-tropical-tropospheric-temperature/
Dr Spencer : "Now, in what universe do the above results not represent an epic failure for the models?"
Answer: The universe that has been sold to us for the past 2 decades!
What does the border wall or anything related to Trump have to do with climate change?
Just one thing. The strategy used to sell one side based on principles proven to be effective for the last century.
It might be called propaganda or maybe a marketing scheme. Whatever you call it, it's extraordinarily effective and features many elements that contradict authentic truth and by definition, its the opposite of being objective/open minded.
It's in widespread use in many realms big and small..............with the hijacking of climate science being the biggest/widespread example of it in history.
The negative interpretation of everything that Trump does is a another quintessential example of it at work.
Here's how if you buy into to the theory that it is immoral.
It is ineffective because it is no where close to the most effective method to stop Illegals from coming into this country, and most certainly is not one of the top 5 methods of stopping terrorist or gang members from coming into this country.
and in spite of the fact that it does not work it is deemed immoral because it show's the worst of our countries beliefs, that we are no longer a country that takes pride in being open to those that suffer political persecution at the hands of immoral power hungry dictators.
Personally I'm not on the Immoral side of the fight I simply believe it is a stupid Ideas that will not work on many levels, and if it weren't for a bunch of trumptards that blindly follow every word of trump vs his actions this would have died long before today.
On its most simplistic level it proves itself to be a stupid Idea Name one other area in law enforcement that would say I got this great Idea to help stop criminal activity, we are going to build a structure so that we can not see what the criminals are up to.
Again I do not oppose the WALL on moral grounds it just is a stupid Idea
"Personally I'm not on the Immoral side of the fight I simply believe it is a stupid Ideas that will not work on many levels, and if it weren't for a bunch of trumptards that blindly follow every word of trump vs his actions this would have died long before today."
frey,
To me, using commence sense, it seems like a wall would help..........but since I have no clue regarding the actual dynamics of southern border security, I decided to base my actual opinion on legit facts from the experts in border security down there.
They are pretty emphatic about a wall helping a great deal(with other elements needed to go along with it).
What is it that you know(other than anything that comes from Trump is bad) that border security does not understand?
"Most certainly, it already assists my men and women," Provost told Hill.TV's Buck Sexton on Wednesday.
"We already have many miles, over 600 miles of barrier along the border. I have been in locations where there was no barrier, and then I was there when we put it up. It certainly helps. It's not a be all end all. It's a part of a system. We need the technology, we need that infrastructure," she added in the interview that aired Thursday."
https://www.npr.org/2017/01/26/511745401/head-of-border-patrol-union-on-trumps-wall-plans
"INSKEEP: In a few seconds, how different do you think the country could be in three or four years if these proposals are carried out?
JUDD: Well, I think the country is going to be a lot safer.
INSKEEP: A lot safer.
JUDD: I really do, yes, absolutely. I mean, I was there with what they call the angel families, families that had children that were killed by persons that were in the United States illegally. If these laws are carried out properly - and he's not talking about new laws. By the way, he's not saying that he's going to give us new laws. He's talking about enforcing the laws that are currently on the books."
Find me ONE story or survey where these people fell it is the best way to secure the Border.
Do they think a border wall will make the border safer I guess , But lets put it this way, a great goal for this country is to have zero Motor vehicle deaths and by making the speed limit 5 mph, if everybody drove that speed it would almost guarantee zero deaths but lets face it, its a stupid Idea
Metmike tell me this of every 100 vehicles that cross the border how many are searched? what percent of the Illegals come through the check points vs across the most remote areas of the border.
Mike I answered all of your questions and sent it for whatever reason it did not post, can't imagine why but my post was wiped out on my end also so I will not repost it ( to time consuming ) but the jest of it is actions mean more than words. His actions have favored foreign governments vs US military and Intelligence (Russian and Saudi Arabia )
His threats against American business that have worldwide footprints if they do not do what he wants His decisions that put tariffs or not put tariffs on goods that hurt his competitors but help his family.
giving waivers to certain Multinational business that have detrimental effects on other on US land based business that can't simply move out of country.
reverse fact based policy to increase very dangours emissions because those that benefit pay him well.
Good point frey, that people also cross the border illegally in vehicles.
That should be addressed too.
But the topic is whether a border wall will reduce the number that cross illegally.
Clearly it will.
If you want to push for additional searching at the border, in addition to a border wall, that's great and it would line up with the advise of the border security.
However, anybody for increased searching or other methods to increase border security that's also against a wall is inconsistent(other than their position is that the wall is Trumps idea so its bad)
"and in spite of the fact that it does not work it is deemed immoral because it show's the worst of our countries beliefs, that we are no longer a country that takes pride in being open to those that suffer political persecution at the hands of immoral power hungry dictators. "
Of all the hopelessly flawed logic in the arguments from the left, this is probably my favorite. If we take steps to stop them from coming in illegally, we are no longer nice people. It's along the lines of their dropping "illegal" from the illegal immigrant label. Who can possibly argue in favor of illegal immigration or denigrate those who are opposed.
not only that crap from frey Tim, how about the fake persecution argument. What? If we have a wall or not the asylum seekers will go thru the damn process. Just as its been said here a dozen times 10 years ago the libs were in favor. Now that Trump wants it suddenly the libs have been triggered....go figure
Frey_1999, you wrote "....it is deemed immoral because it show's the worst of our countries beliefs, that we are no longer a country that takes pride in being open to those that suffer political persecution...."
there are legal ways to come into the US.
I am an immigrant myself.... I followed the rules and was accepted. A job offer in the US was required to give me the entry permit. You don't force your way into your host-country, by breaking through the border illegally. If yo do, you are not an "immigrant", but an "intruder" who has already committed a misdemeanor by setting foot on US soil
And this is what Trump has already stated during his campaign. Calling him a "racist" (as many do) for demanding immigrants to come here legally, is absurd
The recent wave of "caravans" are evidence that the organization Pueblo sin Fronteras (supported by Soros) has done a great job, preparing the immigrants to opt for asylum request, rather than crossing the borders illegally.
However these caravans don't come here because they are "politically persecuted".. they come here for the welfare check.
although Metmike did ask in a round about way -
with this statement trying to change the mantra to -- the topic is whether a border wall reduce the number that cross illegally. then answered -- clearly yes.
If we truly only care about stopping crossings than the plan should be that we light up the border and put a guard station every 250 ft along the border and man them 24/7/365 that will stop the crossings,
I may be wrong, but the only way for an immigrant to get Federal Government assistance is through the very demanding Political Asylum program. The caravan people may think otherwise, but they are not coming in legally, because unemployment is not a qualification for Political Asylum.
From 2007 through 2016 the average number of people given Political Asylum was less then 25,000. I doubt that that number has increased under Trump.
This post was intended to defuse some of the hysteria about welfare but will probably be twisted as a good reason for the wall … but it is actually a good reason for enhanced border security.