Here is the manifesto by the El Paso shooter (A resident of Dallas who travelled to El Paso to carry out this deranged premeditated plan). It contains the usual blame society and Dems and Pubs etc. etc. but in sentence #2 he uses the words "Hispanic Invasion"

http://thefederalistpapers.org/opinion/el-paso-shooters-entire-purported-manifesto

And here is a link showing Trump also using the word "Invasion" whilst speaking to his loyal followers.

http://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/03/18/donald-trump-invasion-coming-border-u-s-captured-thousands-illegal-aliens/

Words and actions have meaning and power and all of us need to be careful how we use words and actions as there are people who are both extremely impressionable and prone to violence.

Of all the ridiculous charges I've seen from the left,  blaming Trump for the actions of a madman because they both used words like "Invasion" has got to be close to the top of the list.

I noticed the shooter also used "The".  I've heard Trump say that many times. 

cliff,

I very much appreciate you taking advantage of this thread. It's a great discussion to have about this because it IS a major topic in our country right now and is being taken seriously by many millions who are convinced that Trump is a racist based on.............a mis-characterization of his actions, in my opinion.

I will repeat the response that was just delivered to joj because it gets to the crux. 

"joj,

There's no problem with calling the shooter in El Paso a racist, white nationalist, xenophobic or whatever extreme, intolerant, hateful views were present that drove him(along with being mentally ill if that's the case).

The problem is in stating that Trump is responsible for this behavior. 

Was Obama responsible for the extreme radical Muslim attacks because he would not use that term in condemning them?

Muslims that misinterpret their faith and become extreme radicals become the terrorists..

So is it the fault of the Muslim leaders the teach the authentic, peaceful form of Islam to peaceful Muslims that we have radicals who kill people?

So Trump is teaching a peaceful form of US nationalism with MAGA. When and where did he ever promote killing people. He has policies for legal immigration and keeping out illegals and MAGA is all about the best interest of legal US citizens(that, as president he represents). 

So because white people comprise the majority of people in the US, and the ones that want to get in illegally are brown, this is twisted into him being a racist and xenophone.

The color of their skin has nothing to do with it. The status of their position............legal American citizen vs illegal or trying to get in illegally is the driving force in his decisions.

If all these people from Central America were white, do you think that his position would be completely different?

So happens that the vast majority of people not living in the US are non whites. 

A question could be..............in what universe defined by one side......... can Trump be for keeping illegal immigrants from invading our country(who are brown) and  have his pro American policies(for people that are mostly white) and be very patriotic (as leader of the USA and its mostly white people) and not be racist or a  xenophobe?"

That universe does not exist for many and those that don't agree with their take on Trump.......they are just part of the Trump cult who just can't see the REAL Trump as they do because they are the all knowing and all judging interpretors and gate keepers of information for the rest of us. 

metmike: Trump has a penchant for saying crazy, impulsive things with no off switch that tell us what he really thinks but he has never suggested or stated race as a clear element involved with his positions.

Of the many  thousands of times that he tweeted or stated non tactful and even offensive things to many people(he has offended, handicapped, fat people, women for instance) site for me one time that he blatantly used race?

He may have referred to the Mexicans and people in Central America in unfavorable terms but this is twisted into him doing it because of the color of their skin when the reality, is that its because he is making a case to keep out illegal immigrants.

Was calling Baltimore, a rat infesting place, "a rat infested place" a racist remark..........because most of its residents are black.

The reality is that this president cannot be critical of ANYTHING  or anyone that is non white without being called a racist. 

Blame and politics have no place in the shooting story. But if blame must be placed at Trumps feet {and every dem and commy running for Pres  has already done so} it will then be fair to talk about other shootings.

As the left is famous for throwing around such ideas as outright armed revolution would it be fair to blame the shooting of the repubs in congress while practicing baseball on the libs? this shooting fiasco has gone way past blame and feel good measures by congress. They write some silly new law {hate crime} feel better and go home to their gated communities with armed guards and keep the violence in somebody else's neighborhood.

For more info on the El Paso shooting go here:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/36004/

For more info on the Dayton shooting(including the shooters anti Trump positions) go here: 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/36051/

For your amusement and my reinforcement of why these 2 characters should never be allowed to post here, this is what comes from them to me on a regular basis via contact the moderator:

Can you guess who message #1 was from and message #2 was from:

message #1: Wow, you are a true Trumptard.
DOW down over 800 points. Yippee!
GO BEARS

message #2: You cannot interpret or read people's minds as you just did this morning regarding cliffe's post at 2:03 AM .  Further and more importantly, your 2:03 am post this morning is nothing short of censure ship, and smacks of Hitlerism.

Why can't you be consistent and ban him, like you have done to me and to other folks who are brave enough to speak out about Trump:  He is a racist, a sex offender, a liar, he obstructed justice, he ripped off students with his phony Trump University, he is in love with  a North Korean dictator (he admits it), etc., etc.

Welp... may as well put these here since Cult 45 may not want to read/know this.

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-washington-well-develop-nuclear-134500724.html?hl=1&noRedirect=1

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-august-5-2019-114434812.html?hl=1&noRedirect=1

So now we presently have a trade war with soon to be Nuclear Arms race/war? That's quite a legacy for 45 and the cult 45

Thanks cliff,

When the stock market crashes or there is bad news about China or in this case Russia, we know who is most likely to post here about it(-:

I appreciate the article with the shooters manifesto. I had not read it:

With regards to your comment:

"in sentence #2 he uses the words "Hispanic Invasion"

And here is a link showing Trump also using the word "Invasion" whilst speaking to his loyal followers."

metmike: In a manifesto with thousands of words, the smoking gun linking this directly to Trump, according to you is that the shooter used the words "Hispanic Invasion" and Trump has referred to the invasion of illegals crossing the border as an invasion........(which it is by any objective standard or definition). Trump didn't even say "Hispanic" invasion to denote race just "invasion".

Invasion:

an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.

"stadium guards are preparing for another invasion of fans"

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=jL5IXYWzFITYtAWjxpCQCA&q=invasion++meaning&oq=invasion++meaning&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i131i67j0i67j0l3j0i67j0l4.10439.11119..11663...0.0..0.138.267.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i10.9d53HkX3XXw&ved=0ahUKEwiFqaPs8-zjAhUELK0KHSMjBIIQ4dUDCAo&uact=5

Honestly, I seriously question why I am spending so much time responding to this hateful silliness and wonder if I should just ignore it(but then it goes uncontested and as moderator, I wouldn't feel right) or delete it, but my objective is to provide every opportunity for posters to express themselves as long as they are not attacking others or being too offensive.

On the other hand, cliff didn't come up with this way of thinking on his own and it defines the way many tens of millions of people think which is exactly the message that the MSM is sending out at this moment.

My sincere apologies to those that are getting very turned off by it. 

Hi cliff,

I am trying to improve my command of the English language...maybe you can help me out.

In your post, you mentioned that the El Paso shooter used the term "invasion", a word that also been used by Pres Trump. Therefore, Trump is to blame for the shooting.

When a single person is caught breaking through our borders, you would not call him an "Invader'. Maybe, you would call him an "intruder"

However, not long ago, the Border Patrol stated that they had arrested some 144,000 people attempting to crash our borders illegally, in one month alone.

144,000 is a military-size operation. On D-Day, the allied forces had some 150,000 men

Of course, I know... these people on our Southern Border are not soldiers. They are unarmed, and some of them are minors. Nevertheless, the size of this group is military-size, and their goal is to break through another country's borders and enter into that country. What's wrong with calling this an "invasion"?

The Commander of Hypocrisy.

The Commander of Hypocrisy: a wildly successful job of living down to expectations.

gee out of the 7 posters 5 have to do with our boarder which finally after years some libs have even now admitted is out of control. The other 2 have to do with Hillary and the election. If I remember correctly she was trying to accuse him of everything from being a Russian spy to treason...come to find out who was colluding with Russia? Yes , lock her up and comey and brennan and clapper and all the rest

"The Commander of Hypocrisy: a wildly successful job of living down to expectations."

I like to put the dates on threads that come out frequently, some daily to assist with things moving in an orderly fashion and help in identifying topics using time.

Maybe we can add a new item to the list:

"Trump  bashing, August 7, 2019" (-:

OK, I'm only half joking.

Negatives:

1. Would encourage posters to make hateful, sometimes not very bright and almost never positive contributions(as in bashing like a programmed zombie-example above- vs making astute observations critical of Trump with one's brain engaged)

Positives:

1. Maybe it would divert the randomness to something with more order and all the Trump haters would have their own special thread to look forward to.

OK, bad idea but funny to post it. The last thing I want to do is to spend extra time trying to keep threads "pure" that only relate to the topic listed.

I did that this time with the shootings because of the tragic nature of the event, trying to minimize the already too hateful responses which completely messes up peoples mentality from where it should be in sympathizing with the victims and their families. 

You don't overcome evil deeds and hatred  in the world by escalating hatred to new heights. 

Love, support, compassion and understanding is most appropriate for a time like this, even if it can't be maintained at other non tragic times.

The Derelict is still delinquent. Should this come as a surprise since he's gone thru bankruptcy 6 times?

http://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-still-owes-el-paso-rally-152116905.html

"According to the city, Trump’s campaign owed $470,417.05 for police and public safety services related to the February rally, which was not an official presidential visit. The city sent the Trump campaign a letter in May prior to the deadline notifying it of the past-due invoice and in June added a one-time 21 percent late fee penalty, bringing the total bill to $569,204.63."

Holy cow, a 21% late fee, which added 98,787.58 to the bill from an event from earlier this year!

Those people are crooks!

Trump should pay his bills on time but it's unethical to charge somebody a 21% late fee after they are late paying a bill by 4 months(Feb-June).

Interesting that since the shootings, we've not heard anything hateful from one side or from the president. 

The other side that tells us that these shootings are the result of hatred is the one displaying all the hatred. Lots of it.

Yeah, I know, President Trump used the word invasion at a rally to describe the invasion at our southern border(which it is) and the shooter used the word invasion too.

I'm getting tired of reading that ludicrous logic in numerous MSM stories.  

Now the democrats are insisting that  Trump should not visit El Paso because they don't want him there.

Just great. How exactly does one get along with an opposing entity when they are attacking you constantly, calling you names(racist, white supremacist, xenophobe) blaming you for the death of innocent people, rejecting your efforts to show support to those who just suffered a great loss. 

The only relationship this side intends to have with you is the one that features them as investigators and you as the target........ as they openly try to destroy and impeach you while actively doing everything possible to block all your efforts to accomplish your objectives for the American people because they clearly hate you? 

Seriously, how does one get along with people that treat you like this?

That was not just a rhetorical question. I would like to hear thoughts on how Trump can  have a professional relationship  working together with democrats that are on a mission to obliterate him. 

He can be unTrumplike and take the high road and ignore all this stuff, which is an unrealistic expectation for most people especially him but I hope that somehow he manages to obtain the strength to do  that more than he has in the past. 

Maybe we can add a new item to the list:

"Trump  bashing, August 7, 2019" (-:

OK, I'm only half joking.

Negatives:

1. Would encourage posters to make hateful, sometimes not very bright and almost never positive contributions(as in bashing like a programmed zombie-example above- vs making astute observations critical of Trump with one's brain engaged)

But they already do that without any encouragement, so I say, go with it! Maybe you could give frequent Trump bashers their very own perma-threads by poster handle, so that they could take pride in their efforts by continuously updating the same complaints and assertions over and over and over and over as time goes on (not that they don't do that already, but this would give them a central depository for their bodies of work to look upon with pride and a sense of accomplishment, no matter how undeserved). Wouldn't that be wonderful?

The best way to expose our ignorance is to hold on to biased ideas and opinions, because we fear giving the upper hand to the other side.

Charles F. Glassman

Good one carl!

One of the requirements of learning is to acknowledge ignorance.

If we were convinced that we knew everything about a topic, then is makes it difficult to learn new things about that topic because our mind would have a hard time accepting something that it does not believe exists!

When we are convinced that we are right about many things,  it just causes us to be wrong that much longer about the things that we are inevitably wrong about.

Celebrate and embrace and look forward to being wrong as it represents learning new things. 

The true colors of the Cult 45 channel.

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/fire-tucker-carlson-vacation-084048941.html

This "FireTucker" thing is the funniest thing yet.  Apparently, people who HATE Fox News can't change their channels and watch anything else.  So,  since they can't change the channel,  he MUST be FIRED!!.

It must be terrible to feel so helpless.

The Commander of Hypocrisy at it again.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-hypocritical-war-on-savers-182243251.html

Thanks cliff!

We can note the title of the article as a tip off of what the mindset of the authors is, which is not going to provide us with much objectivity, just good old Trump bashing.

"Trump’s hypocritical war on savers"

They do however, have a point that Trump's priority has changed since becoming president.

Could it be that now, as president and being responsible for policies that effect economic growth and employment that low interest rates are much more important to him.

Before, he was just a rich guy that, like all rich guys, want the highest interest rates on their investments of millions of dollars.

Poor people do best with interest rates lower(they don't have money to invest and many live pay check to pay check...........so the economy/jobs matter most). Rich people do best with rates higher. They don't need a job, just high returns on there massive wealth.

Interesting that the authors failed to recognize that(they are supposedly the financial gurus at Yahoo, I'm just a yahoo from Indiana) but instead, even used the word "war" ......not on high interest rates but on "savers" to make it sound like its personal against this group of real people...............to describe Trump's actions so as to maximize the effect of verbiage to do damage in the eyes of those that

1. Hate Trump

2. Want higher interest rates.

So cliff, should we assume that you are somebody that wants higher interest rates based on this story or is it just a Trump bash on a policy that you might actually agree with but you never really took the time to think about?

Cliff, do you think interest rates should be higher or lower?

Adding to his legacy...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/08/12/president-trump-has-made-false-or-misleading-claims-over-days/

Thanks cliff,

I've always found this one amusing.

We all know the president is the all time greatest embellish-er of facts and then some but what's hilarious is the way that the Post, obliterates any credibility that they might have on the issue by doing exactly what the president does in conducting their so called fact checking.

They make stuff up and twist the interpretation to generate many thousands of what they call false statements that are actually true.

Here's some from just the last month:

Trump statement: Jul 31 2019

“We have the number one economy on earth. No economy is so strong.”

Repeated 39 times

Post ruling this false: "Trump first started saying this when the American economy expanded at an annual rate of 3.5 percent in the third quarter of 2018. Many other countries have faster growth rates, including China, India, Latvia, Poland and Greece."

metmike: This one generates the maximum Pinocchio's for the Post!. Why they would even question this indisputable  statement by Trump is ludicrous.

metmike: Top 20 Economies in the World

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

• Countries by GDP
• 1. The United States
• 2. China
• 3. Japan
• 4. Germany
• 5. United Kingdom
• 6. India
• 7. France
• 8. Brazil
• 9. Italy
• 10. Canada

Trump statement: Jul 31 2019

“Unemployment for African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans and Asian-Americans have all reached the lowest rates ever recorded.”

Repeated 87 times

Post ruled that  this adds 87 lies to the presidents record for the following reasons:The current African American unemployment statistic has been in existence for less than 50 years. It reached a low of 5.9 percent in May 2018, but rose to 6.0 percent in July. An older set of government data suggests black unemployment went much lower in the 1950s. The Asian-American statistic has been around for less than 20 years. And while it reached a low of 2.0 percent rate in May 2018, it rose to 3.0 percent in July, the most recent month available. Hispanic unemployment has also rebounded. Lately, Trump has been using the word "reached," perhaps to indicate the lows are in the past."

Jul 31 2019

“We've created six million new jobs since Election Day. Nobody would have thought that was possible.”

Repeated 98 times

Post ruling: "Trump often inflates the number of jobs created under his presidency by counting from Election Day, rather than when he took the oath of office. There have been about 5.7 million jobs created since January 2017, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics."

metmike: So his number, rounding of to 6 million is a lie 98 times because the real number, was 5.7 million.

Jul 31 2019

“She got into colleges, she got teaching jobs. She said she was of Indian heritage. It turned out to be a lie. So Elizabeth Warren really has a big lack of credibility.”

Post: There is no evidence that Warren obtained teaching jobs because she claimed Native American heritage.

metmike: Elizabeth Warren DID lie about her Indian heritage for decades in college and on resumes so that she would have an advantage, being considered as a minority.

Aug 04 2019

“The Media has a big responsibility to life and safety in our Country. Fake News has contributed greatly to the anger and rage that has built up over many years. News coverage has got to start being fair, balanced and unbiased, or these terrible problems will only get worse!”

Post: There's some evidence to suggest that intense media coverage of a shooting could be partially to blame for a future mass shooting, but extensive coverage isn't the same as not being "fair" or "balanced," as Trump suggests. Plus, it's not likely journalist will just stop covering mass shootings, in part, as Pacific Standard explained, "media organizations have an ethical responsibility to bear witness to the tragedies of history, to ensure that future generations don’t forget the horrors of epochs past."

metmike: Wow, they know thats not what Trump is talking about as they take on this position  of moral high superiority, holier than though, dedicated to ethics..........even as they lie their arses off here...............doing exactly what Trump accused them of doing.

Aug 01 2019

We're trying to have a good relationship [with Russia]. It’s very hard, in light of the phony witch hunt, which is now dead. ”

Repeated 159 times

Post: Long bs response by them to justify the phony witch hunt, using unethical and illegal methods, intended to get Trump for something he was innocent of.

metmike: 159 times for Trump..........telling the truth!

So Trump DOES tell a lot of lies..........but the Post tells just as many!

Yes it's true...all politicians lie but 2 wrongs don't make a right and 12000 lies in 900+ days surely won't. That goes well beyond pathologically lying but what's to be expected of someone who's filed bankruptcy 6 times and is on marriage 4 and countless other sordid affairs on the side and goes thru and uses staff like they were toilet paper? Etc.Etc.

The tin foil hats that Cult 45 wears are tarnished and melting.

Yes time for a change. Bring on Bill Weld and/or John Kasich. Both are widely respected and could win.

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/anthony-scaramucci-says-gop-to-consider-replacing-trump-on-the-ticket-in-2020-213031394.html

"12000 lies in 900+ days"

Actually cliff, as I proved, at least half of those lies were lies by the Post to smear Trump.

This is another case of the MSM being able to use the presidents mean personality to lie about him with impunity and never be held accountable.............as people believe all the bad stuff-even the bad stuff that is a lie-(racist, collusion with Russia) and never look at the facts since he is hated so much and doesn't get the same benefits of innocence until proven guilty that nice people get..........and the MSM is intentionally maximizing their efforts to create as much hatred  for Trump as possible. 

Mike,

 It isn't just that Trump is a meanie. He's extremely divisive and is pulling the US apart even further. He's acting much more like the President of the Red nation rather than the POTUS. The number of lies he tells makes the value of his word very low. I certainly don't trust him in the least.

Thank you Mooch. I agree with cliff and would much rather have Kasich or Weld. It isn't even close in my mind.

 2020 is going to depend on the moderates and independents like myself. The pro and anti Trump tribalists are for the most part not about to change.

 But all in all, I don't have a lot of hope for the US as one nation right now. Obama did a lot to increase divisiveness imo but I also think Trump has more than doubled down on what Obama did. Trump has easily been the worst in decades in the divisiveness dept. A POTUS isn't supposed to try to divide the country like that.

 It is way more than that he is a meanie.

I agree 100% with your points Larry.

Trump is divisive. Trumps does tell lies. My point is that this treatment and acceptance of falsehoods about him are mainly based on him being mean.

Human nature is just that way.

We know that B.Clinton was a master at telling lies that were sometimes believable, but you couldn't help but admire his charisma and likeability even when you knew he was telling a whopper. ............and give him the benefit of the doubt.

If we like a person, they get the benefit of the doubt.

If we dislike them, they don't get the same benefit and if we hate them, they get what they deserve. 

For instance: Trump deserved to be investigated for 2+ years for a crime he didn't commit according to millions. Trump deserves to be called a racist and blamed for the El Paso shootings because he used the word invasion to describe the invasion at the southern border and the shooter used that word too.

This is wrong, even if he is mean. 

He is a racist for attacking a black man from Baltimore and the conditions in his city that has lots of blacks. 

Tens of millions are convinced this is evidence.

If this were Reagan that said the exact same things tactfully but with the same meanings........we would interpret it differently. 

When you like someone,  they can drop their bowl of soup in your lap and you'll both probably laugh about it.

When you don't like someone, the way they hold their spoon can drive you to distraction

This administration is no friend of agriculture and rural America. And a few of us have known this from the very start.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biofuels-trump/trump-intervention-triggered-epas-surprise-biofuel-waiver-decision-sources-idUSKCN1V610F

Another biased example of completely ignoring news that tells a story that one side doesn't want told and intentionally wording other news in headline grabbing attention, making it tell a negative story that you want people to remember. 

Never heard a peep out of you on this:

What Trump's new ethanol rules mean for you

Published June 11, 2019U.S. EconomyFOXBusiness

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/trump-ethanol-rules

"The move is also a boon to corn farmers, since corn is widely used to make ethanol domestically. Allowing for the year-round sale of E15 will give farmers more avenues to sell corn, which could bolster revenue especially when prices are low.

Shaw expects Trump’s recent action to create “tens of millions of gallons of immediate demand for ethanol.”

E15 vs. E10: Here’s What Trump’s Ethanol Deregulation Push Means

https://fortune.com/2018/10/11/ethanol-gas-e15-trump/

Cliff. Trump is a friend of America and by definition a friend of farmers. So far farmers by  wide margin support him. Enough said.

It's actually ludicrous that any corn farmer would complain about the terms of an ethanol mandate, government imposed program forcing the market to blend billions of gallons of it into gasoline sold at the pump.

The RFS, no matter what shape or form, is an example of extreme bias in favor of farmers and the power of the corn lobby pushed to a limit, resulting in a disruption of the free market that many other groups oppose vehemently.

Funny how the Detroit News was just bashing Trump for being pro ethanol at the expense of everybody else(and you're bashing Trump for being the complete opposite).

Column: Fuel standards impede free market

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2018/07/18/column-fuel-standards-impede-free-market/792570002/

"The RFS, as we all know, is bad for America’s economy and especially bad for working families. It’s also bad for our environment. When the full life-cycle emissions are considered, any weakly supported environmental argument for corn ethanol collapses, according to University of Michigan’s Energy Institute research. 

Faced with these facts and growing frustration from American consumers who are tired of politics as usual and shouldering higher energy costs, the Trump administration and some in Congress have recently considered options – like expanding the corn ethanol mandate – to prop up certain handpicked industries when they should be finding ways to end it."

It's true that E15 increased ethanol demand.

http://ethanolrfa.org/2019/08/e15-sales-up-following-removal-of-summertime-barrier-but-rfs-refiner-exemptions-suppress-expansion/

But it's also true that waivers have destroyed demand.

http://ethanolrfa.org/2019/03/new-eia-data-confirms-ethanol-demand-destruction-in-2018/

Just another example of 45 talking out of both sides of his mouth to placate the oil co.s and the ignorant.

"It's true that E15 increased ethanol demand."

Good for you in recognizing this cliff.

E15 Sales Up Following Removal of Summertime Barrier, But RFS Refiner Exemptions Suppress Expansion

"In June 2019—the first month following elimination of the summertime E15 restriction—sales of the blend virtually doubled when compared to June 2018. At the same time, the Minnesota data show that the wave of Renewable Fuel Standard compliance exemptions granted to oil refiners is suppressing more rapid expansion of E15 and other higher-level ethanol blends."

So the position is................Trump caused sales of E-15 ethanol to go up with his agenda but they are not going up even higher than that because of another policy of his, so instead of being happy for the higher sales, we will criticize him because the sales are not the highest they could possibly be if all of his policies were entirely pro ethanol to the max and completely disregarded other businesses/groups.

You do realize now cliff, that doing this here (griping about Trump and his ethanol position-which has benefited you)has just opened you up to a discussion of the stark realities of this industry and your unjustifiable position.

RFS Waivers for Small Refineries Have Not Reduced Ethanol Demand

https://www.afpm.org/newsroom/blog/rfs-waivers-small-refineries-have-not-reduced-ethanol-demand

"Government data and independent analyses confirm: SREs have not reduced demand for ethanol or deflated prices. Rather, overproduction of conventional biofuels and blend wall infrastructure challenges — along with international trade tensions impacting ethanol — are what’s affecting the marketplace. Withholding SREs to solve for non-existent demand destruction would inflict more pain on small refineries and potentially drive them out of business. No one benefits in that scenario — not refiners, not consumers and not farmers. Here’s what industry and economic experts are saying on the issue"

Federal Fuel Foolishness

https://www.cato.org/blog/federal-fuel-foolishness

"The federal government imposes a mandate to blend ethanol into gasoline. This “Renewable Fuel Standard” harms consumers, damages the economy, and produces negative environmental effects. The mandate has also spawned a bureaucratic trading system in ethanol credits, which the Wall Street Journal reports is bankrupting a refinery in Pennsylvania."

"The ethanol mandate reduces freedom and costs you money at the gas pump for no reason other than to line the pockets of corn farmers, who already benefit from billions of dollars of federal farm subsidies. The mandate is stupid policy and ought to be repealed."

    You RIN Some, You Lose Some  

      Flawed ethanol credits bankrupt a refinery and put steel jobs at risk.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-rin-some-you-lose-some-1520897397

Waivers granted to small refinery owners like ExxonMobil, Chevron and billionaire Carl Icahn? They claimed financial strife and hardship? WTH!

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com/news/2019/08/us-epa-grants-31-small-refinery-waivers-from-biofuel-laws-angering-corn-lobby

The government is already forcing refiners to blend 20 Billion, with a B of ethanol into  gasoline and just changed the laws so that 15% ethanol could be sold this Summer.

Too be upset and complain because some smaller refiners won't have to blend the maximum amount (based on them justifying it) does not look good on you guys.

It's like taking a gift that's 98% of the maximum and being ticked off that your gift is not 100%.

U.S. EPA proposes hike in biofuel mandate to 20.04 billion gallons in 2020: sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-epa-biofuels/u-s-epa-proposes-hike-in-biofuel-mandate-to-20-04-billion-gallons-in-2020-sources-idUSKCN1SF2J6

Corporate welfare for 45's contributors. And all at the expense of America's farmers and all of rural America.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-chevron-exxon-seek-small-182817026.html

http://nypost.com/2018/04/30/epa-grants-financial-hardship-waiver-to-icahns-oil-refinery/

http://energynow.com/2018/12/exxon-mobil-secured-u-s-hardship-waiver-from-biofuels-laws/

The corrupted government/EPA should just step aside and let the free market take over then, right?

What happened to capitalism and free markets?  Why let these politics and government control the market?

What would happen if the government got rid of the RFS mandate to force these refinery's to blend 20,000,000,000 gallons of ethanol with our gasoline?

Citizens never voted for this.........the majority were against it. The refineries were against it. This is not a free market. This is complaining about the rules not being fair to an industry when they are massively weighted by several orders of magnitude in favor of the ethanol industry for entirely political agenda/reasons.

Renewable Fuel Standard (United States)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Fuel_Standard_(United_States)

"The RFS requires renewable fuel to be blended into transportation fuel in increasing amounts each year, escalating to 36 billion gallons by 2022"

From your articles:

"But it allows the EPA to exempt plants of less than 75,000 barrels per day if they show complying would cause financial hardship."

"Exxon’s waiver was granted before the review began, and covers its 60,000 barrel-per-day refinery in Billings, Montana, for the 2017 compliance period,"

Both Chevron (CVX.N) and Exxon (XOM.N), among the world's most profitable energy companies, have asked EPA for waivers for their smallest facilities - Chevron's 54,500 barrel-per-day refinery in Utah and the Exxon's 60,000 bpd refinery in Montana"

The rule only applies to the sub 75 K facilities as it tries to dial in some fairness to just those facilities because of an unfair, government imposed, non free market dynamic. 

So this is unfair because some of these refineries are owned by big oil companies?? Maybe we should just make this fair and let them compete with everybody else in a free market fuel system without this government intervention! Oh, wait,  that's what they are asking for and that's what you are against for anybody when it comes to ethanol sales. 

Did you ever stop to think that if selling/blending ethanol was making them a profit in a free market system, they would want to do it?

BTW, these waivers were the preferred option for the ethanol industry vs what many others wanted............to do away with the government imposed RFS regulations to force the blending of tens of billions(and increasing) of ethanol into our gasoline.

Your position is not to be grateful for the more than 16,000,000,000 billion gallons of the product that you make being forced on the market by our government last year but to be upset that it isn't 17,000,000,000 yet.

But it will be 17,000,000,000 and more based on the government policy which forces refineries to increase the amounts each year.

You are causing yourself alot of grief looking at this from twisted political spin of something  that is almost entirely in your favor.  

Instead of comparing everything to what you would like it to be in your ideal world and being unhappy.............

Do you remember farming in the 90's and previous to that?

Or farming in other countries?

Equipment, techniques, science, the best weather/climate and especially the increase in beneficial CO2 are making farming much more productive and prices are not as horrible as they were just 20 years ago.

Corn ethanol has been the biggest boon to corn demand since......EVER by a wide margin.

Even Faux News polls can't save 45's failing regime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzB3hjUbV_E&fbclid=IwAR1lbk9t4xjwHlgY5huF-pm3DpvoWMynLzxk1O25ZePquWa4rlZ1tYks0aQ

Wow!!!. This guy really counts on the fact that his audience has no idea what's going on.

First,  Fox polls are not limited to it's viewers.   

2nd,  anyone watching left wing commentary, which is nearly impossible to avoid, will note the glee with which they often report how assorted Fox commentators lambast Trump.  So the "24/7 cheerleading" comment  is BS.  

Finally,  anyone watching the polls know that seldom, if ever, has any poll, including Fox, shown Trump with a positive overall job  approval rating. (His handling of the economy is a different story).

Amazing the abject ignorance that will pass as anything but abject ignorance.

Tim,

One reason that I try to hold our lib trolling to minimal standards of credibility is for their own benefit.

Seriously!

mojo is not here anymore because that's all he did, almost 100% of the time is post complete nonsense, gushing with blatant, biased hatred, day in, day out from the same tabloid internet sites dedicated to bashing Trump that had 0 credibility.

mojo made 0 positive contributions.

Since being banned, mojo likes to send me hateful messages, calling me trumptard. Vandenplas, who is also banned has sent me 100+ hateful messages attacking me, many personal.

I really feel bad for these guys, when trying to imagine what it would be like to be so obsessed with hate. For those who have been with us awhile, you may remember that I tried to get vandy some help and offered my email adress to him thru Alex but he rejected it.

Now, as moderator obligated to minimize the hate, disinformation, lies and sources posted here.........from both sides, presents a challenge........which I'm up to and which is the reason for another epistle by me.

I am very tolerant of all views as long as they are not offensive or make personal attacks or turn into nothing but obsessive Trump bashing with no other contributions.............which tells me clearly that they are USING the forum to promote a message of hate.

A poster, like cliff who specializes in Trump bashing can get away with it because he makes positive contributions( I may strongly disagree with him on his ethanol position but his point of view is without a doubt, a positive contribution here).

cliff is a farmer too, who makes valuable comments about crops every once in a while.

However, if 100% of cliff's posts were like this last one(complete bs, with the sole intent of pushing the hate Trump message) and he was posting them every day like mojo............cliff would be getting a warning that it better stop(mojo was warned a couple of times and I tried to help him to adjust his Trump bashing to make it acceptable).

For those that think that I only pick on libs or Trump haters, do know that the last person to get banned was silverspiker(an outspoken conservative), one of my favorites. He went on a binge last week posting 2 dozen gibberish messages with obscenities which in the past, I would just delete because he was a great trading forum poster.

I hope that ss can return after he agrees to stop doing this.

With regards to this thread, it's getting pretty long and maybe we should start a new one for cliff from the top but I still wonder if it's not encouraging him to post absurd nonsense like his last post. 

Since I want to be transparent on my position, the above discussion makes it clear, which is to finish by telling cliff that posting nonsense is discrediting him, his side and his position. 

cliff,

If you want to represent your position in a credible way, use credible sources. I pointed out that the NYT is very biased on Trump but they are still a good source. 

The entire MSM is very biased on Trump, so you can have your pick of using major news networks bashing Trump. At least you will have more credibility than you get in posting a video like this.

Your choice(you didn't violate any rules with this post), ...........unless your intent is just to make posts intended to upset conservatives...........which is not the proper frame of mind to have here.

BTW, this was not a warning to cliff, just a suggestion.

Below is what a warning will look like:

    https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/34965/

            Re: Re: Isreal power in americian politics            

                By metmike - July 21, 2019, 9:20 p.m.            

Lacey,

After having a chance to reread your post, my initial comment was not hard enough.

This is just so over the line of acceptable that you will get banned for another one similar to this.

I don't think it's fair to ban a poster without at least 1 warning and this is yours.

I suggest that you don't even post on this topic in the future because:

1. Your credibility is shot

2. If you express your true feelings, you're out of here. 

Sonny Perdue...just another 45 lackey.

http://www.agdaily.com/lifestyle/sonny-perdues-joke-whining-farmers-booed/

Interesting thread on waivers. 45's EPA may face legal action.

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=873078&mid=7689408#M7689408

New AP poll doesn't look good.

http://apnews.com/1ad13f32984a4480a45738ead2b4c0d8

Btw this thread wasn't started by me and that's not my "pen name" in the title but there's much to learned and hey let's keep it going and go for the gold. ;~)

Sorry cliff,

But I had no choice but to create a new thread for this.  I'll be moving anything that you post on this thread to the new one started this morning for you and everybody else on the same topic. I've copied a link to this old thread so that everybody can still go to it to see the other posts on this topic during the month of August.

51 posts was actually far too long for people and is around 20 longer than what I usually allow.

It's a big issue, especially people using their phones and I-pads that have to scroll down thru 50 different previous posts to get to the latest one.

Not as  big of a deal on a computer.

Is there a different handle that you would like me to refer to you as?

cliff-e   vs cliff?

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/37419/