Does anybody remember when china was allowed into the WTO??
Americans were so sure there was much money to be made with 1 bln new cutomers all wanting american goods
What some might forget is the great shift of american production into china in search of cheap labour. In fact this was just too good to be true
A few had their job out sourced but was there any public out rage about a few lost Jobs
So china provided cheap labour and allowed the americans to set up shop in china
Yes they stole some tecchnology. They don't deny this. They will tell us they had to copy in order to catch up to the modern world
China even told the USA about all the food they bought and china even re-cycled part of the money the americans printed to buy all the goods from china, by the method of buying USA bonds
Now if you ask china this arrangement went on for yrs with no great out rage from the USA. It is trade with each side doing what they can to make an arrangement work
So along comes Trrump and points to the trade deficit. China knows the americans helped to create part of this trade deficit. So why does the USA want to suddenly change the rules that worked for so many yrs???
Trump knows he can't go all the way back to the days of the WTO and china entering the WTO. That would be a tough sell
But he can point to the trade deficit and sell that part of the story
Now Xi knows Trump time in power is limited
Xi also knows he will be around much longer than Trump
So: Given the USA agreed to the rules for many yrs
So why does the USA want to change the rules that worked for so many yrs
This is trade with each side doing what they can to make the arrangement work
Trump points to the trade deficit. China knows the americans helped to create part of that deficit, when they moved production facilities into china in search of cheap labour and then sold products back to the USA
So china provided cheap labour
China provided the means for the USA to set up shop in china and produce goods which they sold back into the USA
China bought huge amounts of food from the USA for many yrs
China re-cycled printed dollars back into the USA and the USA used this money to provide funds for the buget
So what did china do that was so wrong??
As Harvey would say
And now for the rest of the story
Sorry for repeating so much but I tried three times to get this post on the forum.
Each time I was kicked out, probably because I took so long to make sure I had most of the story and no repitition
This time I just hammered it out and posted
My apologies for repitition
I could have made that post a lot shorter and maybe a bit more clarification would have helped
I would really like to know if I take my time and it is a long time, doing a post, then why is my post not accepted
I know I use too many words and am trying to become more brief with little success. That results in a long time, doing a post, trying to get it just so. Brevity is not a strong point with me
because you can only lie, steal and cheat for so long before you are finally called on it Wayne. Time is up. China has had years to ply fair. Europe has had decades to pay their fair share. America has been used enough. It over pay up and shut up. As America prospers so does the world. Those wonderful years of Kerry and allbright and Obama are gone.
I can't argue the Obama etc statement, but as you know this all started back in the WTO days
You have to agree that the USA thought they would make big money selling to a bln Chinese customers
You forget it was the USA that set up shop making stuff in china
Yes the Chinese lie, cheat and maybe even worse
But, you folks let the Chinese do all of this manufacturing stuff as you shifted production to china
Suddenly it is the USA that wants to change the rules
So which is worse. Is it in the eye of the beholder???
China did not ask to change what you folks seemed to think was a good agreement. Of course the little person who had his/her job out sourced felt left out. But it took until Trump came along for the little guy who felt left out to find is/her voice. At the ballot box of course
Sadly that voice may now think socialism is a better deal and china will be a bit further down the list of your problems.
Well: Can you really blame the Chinese for not agreeing to change the rules in mid stream. This went on a lot longer than Obama yrs in office and it was you people who wanted the big money, factories in china, sell cheap stuff, made by your factories, to your fellow citizen. . China just went along with your plant expansion and provided cheap labour. You wanted the big dollars. Suddenly when it doesn't look so good you want to change??? Nobody said a peep for yrs and yrs so why would china suddenly change.
And I have a bit of news for you
The old empire will not last forever. No empire lasts forever.
As the USA goes may some day be the USA alone. The rest of the world will pass you by. You produce very little that the world wants. It used to be food but you can see the world will adapt and leave you and myself holding the bag. 70% of your economy is consumer driven. Do you really think the world cares what you and I produce??? The world will learn to live with out us and very shortly. Then china can lie, cheat somebody else and it won't really matter to us because nobody really needs us in a very short future
You American have a blown up self worth about yourself, which is frankly embarrassing, when people mistake us for americans when travelling in foreign countries. And that is the truth even if it hurts. It hurts me a bit also. Some know us by our accent and know we are not americans. Boy you should hear what the person in the street says about you folks. Especially in the U.K. I would not believe it if I did not hear it myself. Over and over again. I would not pay attention if it was not repeated so many times. I actually got in a street argument defending you folks until my wife pulled me away. The guy was on a soap box kind of affair, and talking trash. I had heard enough and this guy was an idiot. Then he got in my face and that is when my wife pulled me away.
Do you care?? You should
Russia, china India and assorted other eastern rim countries have fully 75% of the world population
Think about that a bit. 75% of the world population and you say the USA can lead the world in commerce and assorted other things. Heck even Iran has got you chasing your tail.
I wish the empire would last for much longer as I am very much as affected as you are
But you can not ignore 75% of the world population in much of anything
If you want my 2 cents worth I think this ends up in a world recession
Won't that be just peachy. Surly people can be a bit rational but not Trump. He has to act like a bull in a china shop and there went our Ag markets. And we don't get a dime of help for your man Trump.
But the farmer will win. Should I say bigly???
If you don't want NATO, then leave
Nobody is begging you to stay
You know as well as I do that NATO is your eastern Europe bulwark against Russian expansion.
You need NATO as much as eastern Europe needs NATO
It's out of the kindness of our hearts that we've allowed ourselves to get taken advantage of & it started long before the WTO.
IMO, the biggest factor was when we felt sorry for the Japanese after WWII, we gave them RCA to try to make up for OUR wrong doings. The beginning of the end, IMO. WE didn't start WWII.
We just need to put emotions to the side...and conduct BUSINESS, a FAIR business.
China owns a LOT of business here in the states, moreso than any other country, maybe. Who sold to them?! GREEDY GUTS, that's who.
Wayne, enforcing rules and regulations is not changing them. We were overly generous much of the world. Hardly reason for them to have anything but respect for America. Although nearly everyone of the dems running for office agrees with you I do not. I like you but whole heartedly disagree. We go much further down the road of being bulldozed and we will be in jeopardy.
I think this is the one issue where I find common ground with Trump. China isn't interested in fair trade. They want to win.
But unfortunately Trump is going at it all wrong.
TPP excluded China and gave us greater power of trade in the pacific rim with 19 countries (not China). Trump dumped it because it was Obama doing it so his fragile ego couldn't allow that.
It would have been smart to build a coalition of the developed countries (Europe) to take on China, but instead Trump sticks his thumb in their eyes and alienates them repeatedly.
Trump will either lose or take the world down the hole while "winning".
But I don't put all the blame on Trump. The American consumer (voter) has no one to blame but themselves. There was a faint cry of "buy American" back in the day, but people are selfish and went for lower priced goods from China. Now.... "they've had enough!" ??? Give me a break!
for decades china has been saying 'give me a break" and they have taken advantage at every turn. There is a fr more issue involved we better not forget. Their theft of intellectual property is not small. Thses leads them right into the heart of such things a national defense and intelligence theft. Things foreign countries have decided to attack in the dark while pretending to be trading partners
You are correct, china does steal intellectual property which is a danger to national security
Guess what mcfarm
So does every other nation on the planet that can muster some kind of theft of national security secrets, from somebody else
Did you know Isreal spies on the USA
The U.K spies on the USA
Get used to it
Every country, who can, will spy on somebody
Can you not see what Xi is prepared to do, what he has done and will continue to do.
This is not about right or wrong, although the americans would like to think it is.
This is about who will be the next world super power
Be honest with yourself. Does Xi really care about right and wrong.
The USA has a weak hand with elections, presidential term limits, change of presidents etc.
If the chinese people must suffer, so be it
They have suffered in the past and are willing to suffer again.