The backround. A guy passes out in the drive thru at Wendy's. Cops are called. They do a sobriety test and proceed to arrest him for DUI. He fights the cops. Grabs a Tazer and starts firing it at them as he runs away. The cops shoot him and he dies. In a normal world, I think this would be the end of the story, But apparently, we no longer live in a normal world. I should mention the deceased was black.
The next day, the mayor (also black) says this was not a justified use of force, and fires the officer.
There are riots. the 75/85 connector is shut down and the Wendy's that had the audacity to call the police is burned down.
Its unfortunate this man died. But when you struggle with police and use a weapon against them, your chances of being shot are pretty good. I just can't come up with a good argument against that.
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protests-06-14-20/h_3c19287be951a1aac47cbfa605f22eb3
I also noted that when the crowd turned aggressive towards CNN and a camera was broken, suddenly CNN is out raged about the violence at Wendy's
A complete 360 degree turn for CNN reporting. I bet CNN would have liked to see a few police protect their camera crew
Just as the folks suddenly wanted police when that statue fell on top of the man
Demenstartors don't want police and then they do
I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/06/14/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-wendys-police-bodycam-video-vpx.cnn
The guy didn't even know what town he was in.
Big difference between fighting for your life and shooting a criminal in the back from fifteen yards away. Duh
There are several things going on here.
1. The most obvious is that a black man died at the hands of white cops. This is all that most people will care about.
2. The death was not justified. The black man, though he was resisting arrest and actually took the cops taser and was firing the taser at the cop as he ran, did not pose a deadly threat to the cop.
3. This was not a violent crime, just a DUI, where the guy needed to be taken to the police station for a breathalyzer(he failed the one the cops gave him at Wendys") charged with a DUI and go to the drunk tank for the night. His level, .105 was not extraordinarily high. It was above the legal limit of .08, probably by a couple of drinks. So the guy was not extremely drunk.
4. He resisted arrest. Not only did he fight the cops, it looks like he punched them but he grabbed one of their taser guns and took it, then while fleeing, shot it at the cop that was chasing him. This is what makes the case different than George Floyd's case.
5. So I can't imagine that anybody considers this murder. However, considering the circumstances, at the very least, even though the cops were having a physical altercation with a person refusing to be arrested and even attacking them with their own weapon, killing the guy was unjustified because a taser is not deadly.
6. If the guy had stolen the cops gun and this happened(like what Michael Brown was trying to do in Furgeson MO-the hands up don't shoot narrative is completely made up-then the shooting is justified)
7. So it appears more likely to be a very bad judgement call by cops trying to arrest a suspect who is fighting them. One has to also remember that there are thousands of incidents like this taking place every day across America, where the job of the cop is to arrest a person that doesn't want to be arrested. There WILL be incidents where the cop, not being perfect will end up killing somebody that fought them. This one is NOT justified and was preventable but we will never have perfect cops because we don't have perfect law breaker behavior...........in fact, many law breakers want to seriously hurt or kill the cops. Again, this was not justified but keep that mentality in mind if you want to understand the big picture.
8. There is no evidence that this was racially motivated. It might be but its unfair to assume that(which everybody will because of the races involved) because young black men are committing crime at a rate 6 times higher than whites and most cops are white..................so there will be hundreds of thousands of encounters between the 2 races that match this dynamic each year in this country. 99.9% of them will not end up in the death of the black person. The world has been led to believe differently.
9. It's very, very sad that this happened at all but especially right now.
10. The reaction of rioting and burning down the Wendy's and hurting many innocent people is completely counterproductive. Instead of it changing minds and creating change it does the 100% opposite. It causes the people who's minds you want to change to hate you because you are a criminal. You can't be for justice and laws to protect one group, and at the same time, intentionally violate/break laws to hurt alot of innocent people to get attention. Either you are for equal justice, fairness and the law......or you aren't. This goes back to what MLK taught us. If you want respect, you don't get it by disrespecting others, violating their rights and hurting countless innocent people. This is exactly WHAT TERRORISTS DO. Rioters are nothing but terrorists and terrorism that some seem to think is justified because the cause is so important. It was not even justified in the 60's and would not have been justified in the south when blacks were being lynched by the KKK on a regular basis...........although, in that case, I would understand it............yet, somehow, MLK in those days avoided it and now look how we think of him. The man who brought about more positive change for human rights and humanity in our country's history. He has a street named after him in almost every US city and a holiday to honor him...........so he gave us the blue print. We need to use it.
edit: 11. I've added this one after discussing things with Wayne. There is a tiny chance that this person had a warrant out for their arrest for a violent crime and they never showed up in court.......so they would considered a dangerous felon who is on the run. The cops had time to breathalyze and field sobriety test him, so we assume they were able to look up his record. Even if he has a record, he should still be treated with respect and humanity, so I'm not stating otherwise. However, if he is a felon(rape, armed robbery) on the run, then he IS dangerous to society and though the killing was still probably unjustified it makes for a case to support the cop's mindset in thinking he could not let a person likely to hurt other people get away. If the guy does not have a record, then you just let him go, no brainer. Even if they put him in the drunk tank/jail overnight for a DUI, he was going to get out the next day anyway. They had his car. They probably knew who he was. Whats the big deal if he gets away?
12. Maybe cops should be trained to shoot people running away in the legs?
Georgia Blood Alcohol levels
http://www.georgecreal.com/what-does-a-given-blood-alcohol-level-mean.html#.XuZEC2B7nX4
So here is the problem as I see it
The guy was fleeing and 15 feet away
What if the guy looks to be winning the foot race
What if during the scuffle a pro bone lwyer could argue the cops did not have a good description of him. Which any lawyer worth their salt should be able to win that argument in court
So the guy escapes, but is arrested lateer or maybe not arrested due to insufficient descriptionEitheer waay the guy walks on resisting arrest
Also wins the DUI because it is dark and immediately resists arrest. Insufficient description any lawyer can win in court
All this goes through the cops mind in other similar situations
Do you let him escape or do you make an arrest by any means possible due to resisting arrest and stealing the tazer
The resisting arrest has elevated the charges and force necessary to make the arrest. The guy is no longer sitting in his car, peacefully responding to police orders
There is no way the cops win either if they let him go or make the arrest. They may be jerks but they are in an impossible situation
Who can out run a young fit person, if you are over the age of 40 yrs old and riding in a squad car most times when on your shift
Wayne,
IF they fire a weapon in this situation, at the very least aim at his legs unless the guy has a loaded gun.
Since the guy did not pose a threat to anybody, letting him go.........letting somebody that just broke the law go was a much better option in this case.
That one is tough. Cops are there to stop law breaking and arrest those doing it. Letting people go who they think deserve to be arrested is probably against their belief system.
Cops DO let people go when pulling them over for speeding. They do it all the time.
However, speeding is not hurting anybody. Passing out in the drive thru line at Wendy's because you have had too much to drink, means you were threatening the lives of other people on the road driving and must be arrested.
They had his car, so he was not going to drive anymore that night and they knew who he was and where he lived, so they could have just impounded his car and put out a warrent for his arrest..........no big deal.
If he had spent the night in the drunk tank, he still would have been released(possibly with a low bond) and been free anyways the next day.
So the difference between taking this guy in and not taking him in was not that great here.........unless we find out that he already had warrants for his arrest.
If we find out that this guy had been charged with a violent crime and never showed up for court and had a warrant out for his arrest, then it changes the mindset of the cop a bit. Still mostly unjustified death, unless the guy had been charged with committing a rape or homicide and skipped bail. Only in that situation, can the cop make a case that he was trying to protect innocent people from a violent criminal/dangerous felon on the run. We don't know that is the case here but, for example, what if this guy had committed murder and sentenced to prison but escaped? I would say the shooting WAS absolutely justified. That is not going to be the case here but a person like that is going to be extremely dangerous and likely to hurt people and you can't just let them run away because they are faster than you.
That one tiny exception is the only way this was justified.
His BAC was .105? But he had no idea what city he was in. If his bac was a reasonable .105, then he was on other stuff too... That was in the video. They were having a reasonable discussion. He was apparently calm. Then they tried to handcuff him and it went from calm to full blown batshit crazy in half a second. The guy grabs an officers weapon after assaulting him and tries to use it against him while running away. And you feel the officer should have said "Oh what the heck, he's no threat"
Now suppose 5 minutes later he killed a citizen in his path? Make your judgment in 1/10th of a second, and if you are wrong, you'll be persecuted and prosecuted for the rest of your life.
Mike,
From what I understand, successfully shooting someone in the legs, especially with cop and subject running and subject aiming back at them with the device, is much more difficult than shooting them in the wider part of their body.
I agree with both your points.
Tim,
This is what makes this case completely different than the George Floyd case. The main issue we have to question is the use of deadly force.
As I mentioned, if they knew this guy was a dangerous felon or had a warrant for a violent crime, then it is different. Otherwise, who was he going to hurt running away?
Fighting the cop and using his stun gun clearly make this different than the MN case and the cop surely would have to be worried about his personal safety...........but his life?
Possibly, if the guy used the stun gun on him THEN took his gun when he was stunned. Unfortunately, after decades of cops getting more than the benefit of the doubt(with massive cover ups) we have swung to the opposite extreme right now.
"Now suppose 5 minutes later he killed a citizen in his path?" By what method would he have killed a citizen Tim?
Larry,
You are correct. Shooting in the legs would be very difficult, especially while you and the suspect are running and he is firing a stun gun at you.
I believe that cops are taught to shoot to kill, in a large part because they are only supposed to shoot when its life threatening............so they are not supposed to shoot just to keep somebody from getting away.
I have been busy all day with family and no time to find out additional details and appreciate anything you guys pass on.
In fact, that's always a wonderful idea here every day.
+my initial thoughts on this are just thoughts on this. I'm not claiming the guy should be charged with anything or that he should have even lost his job. He deserves a fair hearing from objective authorities that have all the evidence and a grand jury if that is needed.
Thanks
Otherwise, who was he going to hurt running away?
You're certain that a guy who assaulted you and took a weapon from you is not gonna hurt any of the people you are sworn to protect and serve. What method? The guy just fought off two cops and took a weapon. So, wild guess. His bare hands?
I'm sorry. I'll never be able to put myself in a position to defend someone who assaults cops. If they can do that, they can assault anyone. They are a threat to society.
So we need to kill people that "might" assault citizens based on them fighting to get away from a cop?
There is no defending what the drunk guy did but it doesn't justify being killed.
As they say, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
And in this current environment, people are only looking for wrongs with cops.
They are taking tv shows that portray them as good guys away. They want them out of schools. They want them defunded.
That is so counterproductive. If you REALLY want to improve the relationship between minorities and cops, you don't intentionally take off shows that might improve the image of cops to them. Most cops in schools are interacting with kids in a positive way. Do you want the interaction to only be when cops are called in an emergency or to arrest somebody and never get to know a cop...............like is the case in schools, when 99% of the time they are doing something good there and its a positive. To eliminate that for this is reason is complete ignorance and counterproductive.
Defunding an organization we need more than ever instead of making changes to improve it is also totally ignorant.......by some. The others know what they are doing. They want chaos and unaccountably, especially now that Trump has taken a stand on supporting law and order..............they want the opposite of law and order.
This one they will lose on, unless President Trump does something really dumb.
Too many people in this country are on the side of law and order and safety for their families and businesses so that they can't win a position against that one. The never Trumpers of course are never Trump but anybody NOT never Trump will view this particular issue as pro Trump.
I'm not talking about race. They can paint Trump as a racist until the cows come home but instead, law and order and people feeling safe.
Gun sales up 80% and at all time records in May and even higher in June tell you that the polls may show Trump getting clobbered in the polls and he will probably lose but on guns, personal safety and law and order, peoples actions right now are telling us they overwhelmingly side with Trumps view.
I'm telling you that if the man was not such a loose cannon, this is such an important issue and with Biden, being the weakest candidate in history, President Trump could use it to such an advantage(if he was tactical and not impulsive) that he could win on just law and order.
Everybody against law and order is on the far left............but they probably hate Trump so much that Biden gets their vote no matter what, so he might not have alot to lose taking a strong stand on law and order..............but wait, he wants the minority vote and can't be pro police. However, when he nominates(when his handlers that control him nominate) a black woman for VP, that probably will lock in the black vote.
Regardless, if Trump could make a case that his version of law and order means safer inner cities and urban areas for the vast, vast majority of good, law abiding minorities and those people also realize that the best thing to stop blacks being killed by cops is to cut way back on the violent crime they commit and the #1 reducer of violent crimes is employment.
But that's the real world. Political narratives are made from a manufactured world thats used to sell people something that generates votes. The more creative and convincing the propaganda the more effective at getting votes. People rarely fact check things. They will let CNN fact check everything Trump says and if you are watching CNN or other biased MSM sources, you are probably watching because you want to hear the news told the way they spin it............which keeps a positive feedback loop going.
Same with this shooting for many.
Many on one side KNOW that this was just another senseless, unjustified killing of a black man BECAUSE he was black and the cop was white.
Many on the other side KNOW this black guy was breaking the law, a threat to the cop and innocent people and the shooting was justified.
This case, if it were being used sincerely by both sides that cared only about police reform to make the world a better place, would focus the debate on the amount of lethal force cops will be allowed to use in the REFORMED police organizations around the country. NOT defunded but reformed to do better jobs serving minorities.
The atmosphere right now is being controlled by emotions/hate, false narratives(blaming cops for everything) and many seeing it as another way to defeat Trump and some using it to create chaos to change our democracy and capitalism.
There are also alot of good people that want a positive outcome for the right reasons. Sadly, I hear nobody, anywhere discussing the biggest problem keeping blacks from enjoying the American Dream fully.
Lack of education and job opportunities and failure of young black men to be an intrigal part of the family unit..........all leading to the 6 times higher rates of violent crime committing.......which is the BIGGEST reason they have 6 times more confrontations with cops.
As I show here with several studies, white men committing crimes are more likely to be killed by cops than black men for any individual crime/arrest or for all crimes, even taking into account the ratio/difference.
Black men being killed by white cops get all the outrage and sensationalized.
In the last 10 years, name 1 white man killed by cops that made the news. There were more of whites killed by cops than blacks but you can't name 1.
I realize that most of the cases with blacks we know about(the one in Ferguson was a justified shooting by a very good cop and hands up don't shoot was totally made up) deserve attention but if a white man is shot by a cop it doesn't make the headlines and this gives people the false impression that cops are more likely to kill a black man in the same situation compared to a black man.
You probably even think that I must be wrong because most in society have accepted this as a fact.
Of course white cops are more likely to kill a black man for the same crime/situation as a white man, you must think! The honest statistics that dial in the extremely high rate of crime by blacks show that to be FALSE.
Using statistics to lie and smear cops
10 responses |
Started by metmike - June 12, 2020, 7:48 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/53752/
Met Mike: Glad you brought up something the news media wont. The fact that the reason blacks are arrested more than whites is because they commit more crimes. People can make excuses as to the reason why but those are the facts. Not the Police Officers job to figure out why only that they have to deal with it.
The news keep saying a taser is not a lethal weapon,sometimes it can be,but the point is if the Officer was hit by the taser he would have been helpless to keep someone who had assaulted him from getting his gun so fearing for his life he was right to shoot.
Good to read you jmk............and get your opinion!
I enjoy opinions that contrast mine too.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-shooting-wednesday/index.html
(CNN)The now-fired Atlanta Police officer who faces a felony murder charge for fatally shooting Rayshard Brooks last week kicked the 27-year-old man after he fell to the ground, Fulton County's district attorney said Wednesday.
DA Paul Howard announced 11 charges against Garrett Rolfe, who fired three shots at Brooks, two of which hit Brooks in the back and another that hit a car with three people inside.
After Rolfe shot Brooks, he failed to give timely first aid, exclaimed, "I got him," and kicked Brooks as he struggled for his life, Howard said.
Asked by a reporter about new details revealed by the district attorney, Tomika Miller, Brooks' widow, began to cry and said, "I was very hurt. ... I felt everything that he felt just by hearing what he went through. And it hurt. It hurt really bad."
A law firm representing Rolfe said he reacted after he thought he "heard a gunshot and saw a flash in front of him."
"Fearing for his safety, and the safety of the civilians around him, Officer Rolfe dropped his taser and fired his service weapon at the only portion of Mr. Brooks that presented to him -- Mr. Brooks' back," a statement released by the LoRusso Law Firm says.
Attorneys for Rolfe said their client immediately called for emergency medical services and began rendering aid to Brooks."
metmike:
This this is so sad for everybody.
This is such a different case than George Floyd's.
Interesting that the video CNN shows us, leaves out the part at the end where the cop charged with murder is giving Rayshard CPR and pleading with him to breathe.........the only reason that I saw that is I turned on Tucker Carlson on Fox a few minutes ago.
I haven't seen any video of him being kicked and for them to say he did not give timely aid...........is a lie, I just watched/listened to the CPR and they called for an ambulance immediately.
So this good cop made (in retrospect) a bad decision under challenging circumstances and is going to be made an example and pay a high price for his mistake because the current environment(all cops are bad and white cops shoot blacks at a much higher rate........studies and statistics prove this to be irrefutably false) demands it.
Instead of equal justice for all blacks, we have swung, at this moment in time to, excessive justice for black deaths to be imposed against white cops.
And cops that die right now, even black cop deaths from rioters......are not that important.
And the thousands of blacks that die from black on black violence this year and every year, that all cops try to prevent(their mission to fight crime and create safe black neighborhoods) don't matter.
Black lives killed by white cops are the only lives that matter.
Not black educations, jobs or families that lack men as good fathers and husbands......but just the ones killed by white cops........at a lower rate in reality than white men killed by cops.
Using statistics to lie and smear cops
13 responses |
Started by metmike - June 12, 2020, 7:48 p.m.
"Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard charged Rolfe with 11 counts, including felony murder and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. If convicted, Rolfe is facing the possibility of the death penalty or life in prison.
Howard also charged officer Devin Brosnan, who was also involved in the attempt to arrest Brooks but not in the shooting, with aggravated assault and two counts of violating his oath."
metmike: Felony murder is for somebody that intends to kill the other beforehand. And to charge him with 11 counts? And to charge his partner with those crimes listed.
This is based on politics and pressure on the prosecutor and not justice or fairness.
And when the cop is not convicted, (no reasonable jury would) there will be more riots.
And how many new jobs will blacks have?
Better Education?
Violent crime rate and incarceration rate?
How many more black families will have dads and husbands?
How many blacks will have lower crime rates in their communities(less black on black homicides)?
Answer: NONE of them, defunding the police causes HIGHER crime rates(indisputable) and more black deaths...........and makes it harder to control violence in schools that don't have police.
Maybe the dems can dress up in African garb again and tear down more statues to get re elected.........yea, that will do it.........NOT!
Maintaining the problem and the false illusion that Dems are the party that cares/helps blacks and Pubs are the party of racists(Trump) is the winning strategy.
Empty gestures = ZERO legit progress for African Americans
this certainly is a frequently discussed police-killing case. Arguments have been made for both sides of the debate.
However, in the end, the victim would still be alive, had he hollowed the advice of Chris Rock
Gunter,
I've seen that video at least 10 times and it was just as funny this last time!
And relevant too!
ATLANTA — The Atlanta Police Foundation is paying a $500 bonus to every Atlanta police officer today.
It will add up to more than $2 million in money the foundation has raised. No city funds will be used to pay for the bonuses.
They’ll also be purchasing 20 police cars to replace those that were destroyed in protests a few weeks ago.
The foundation told Channel 2 Investigative Reporter Justin Gray that the bonuses are a thank you for the long hours and hard work over the past 3 months.
ATLANTA — The Atlanta Police Department reported there has been no massive walkout from several police precincts throughout the city despite online rumors saying otherwise.
The department announced in a statement Wednesday night that there were a higher number of callouts, but the city was covered and in no danger:
“Earlier suggestions that multiple officers from each zone had walked off the job were inaccurate. However, department is experiencing a higher than usual number of call outs with the incoming shift. We have enough resources to maintain operations and remain able to respond to incidents throughout the city.”
The rumors came just hours after Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard announced charges against two Atlanta police officers in the death of Rayshard Brooks on Friday night.
Howard said his office had taken out warrants for former Officer Garrett Rolfe, who was being charged with 11 counts, including felony murder and aggravated assault, criminal damage to property and violations to his oath of office.
Officer Devin Brosnan is being charged with aggravated assault and two violations of oath of office.
Howard said his office concluded at the time of Brooks’ death, Brooks did not pose a threat to the officers. He said Brooks was running away from the officers when Rolfe shot him in the back two times.
It must be horrible to be a police officer right now!
Besides the usual crapola, there is a ton more to manage............and you know that tons of people hate you and judge you just because you are a cop(hey, don't they call that profiling/stereotyping?).
Even worse, there are nuts/criminals out there that will shoot you while you're sitting in your police car eating a donut.
Atlanta police officer Devin Brosnan suffered a concussion and other injuries during the altercation that led to the shooting death of Rayshard Brooks, the cop’s attorney said in a televised interview.
“Devin ends up taking out his Taser and yelling at him to ‘stop fighting, stop fighting,’” Don Samuel told CNN’s Chris Cuomo on Wednesday night. “Mr. Brooks grabbed the Taser from him and shoots … Devin gets shot with the Taser.”
The lawyer added: “He then falls over and lands on his head on the pavement and gets a concussion.”
Samuel, who called Brosnan’s actions “exemplary,” claimed prosecutors didn’t bother looking at the officer’s medical records.
He also rejected the aggravated assault charge leveled against his client, who prosecutors said stood on Brooks’ shoulder after he was shot.
Samuel said the concussed Brosnan didn’t even realize Brooks had been shot when he “put his foot on the arm to make sure he didn’t have access to a weapon” as he lay on the ground.
“It’s not an assault. It’s a man suffering from a concussion,” he added.
Meanwhile, another attorney for Brosnan said there is no agreement for the officer to testify — contradicting what Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard said at a press conference announcing charges Wednesday.
metmike: This district attorney needs be taken off the case. Way over charging the first cop was bad enough(11 charges, including felony murder) but the 2nd cop clearly did nothing wrong and was acting exactly like a good cop should act.....got charged with crimes and could face 20 years in prison.
Here's Chris Cuomo from CNN, after hearing the details of the story, including the concussion, telling us why he thinks the charges, including aggravated assault by the assisting cop are justified.