More than 300 election deniers on the ballot nationwide next Tuesday.
If they win that is one more nail in the coffin of our democracy.
Based on the latest polls it looks grim to me.
joj, you know my position loud and clear on the fake election steal and how its being used by the right and has permanently damaged the mindsets of tens of millions of republicans because of a dangerous psychopath controlling them, similar to the way a cult leader does.
However, what do you expect after the past 2 years?
Nothing personal because you and me agree on many things but the democrats, led by Biden have done it to themselves.
sorry joj, but this is the fault of the dems. the last 2 years, they have done everything they can to destroy the dollar, destroy the budget, destroy the energy sector (based on their myths about a climate crisis). the dems will be punished for their crockpot of bad policies.
empires go down the drain because of too much debt, too much taxation, too much socialism, too much bureaucracy, too much spending (even military spending), and debasing the currency. in this regard, biden is one of the worst presidents in american history.
no matter what you think of trump and his voters, the current batch of dems are a bigger threat to our country.
i did not vote for trump. i don't like trump. but the dems are a bigger threat. bad economic policy is what turns countries into 3rd world nations.
but i do expect europe and japan to collapse first.
this is ironic,... if biden had shown restraint on spending, and not pushed all his bad policies, he would have a balanced budget. inflation would be lower, and the public would not turn so strongly toward favoring the pubs.
Bear,
1. Imho, I could see high inflation being partially but not anywhere close to completely tied to Biden/Dems policy. What's the best evidence to only partially blame them? Because inflation is up significantly across much of the world. Thus, I feel that inflation would very likely have still been up quite a bit even had 45 been re-elected due strictly to these worldwide forcings. My wild guess is that it still would have been at least 5-6% as opposed to 8-10% meaning about half the increase in inflation at most due to Dems. I think a lot of the portion caused strictly by Dems is likely energy policy related. Mike has written a lot about this and has convinced me to an extent although I still wonder about NG because they're at record high production along with huge weekly injections of late.
Keep in mind the two COVID stimulus packages that were while 45 was still in office. They added to $2.7 trillion. He even wanted higher checks to be issued if I'm not mistaken. Are you forgetting this? How much of this is to blame?
2. Even if I were to make the ridiculous assertion that nearly all of the inflation rise was due to Dems, I'd still insist that what 45 did as regards the election lie crapola far outweighs the inflation issue and just about anything else that any potus has done. The inflation will turn around.
Well Bear,
I enjoy reading your posts. Really I do. Libertarians are authentic, if somewhat misguided.
In this case, blaming Biden for the inflation is a bogus assertion. (Even though it is very effective)
The inflation we are experiencing now has been in the pipeline since the Trump administration flooded the economy with Covid relief. Hell, I got 3 grand from him with HIS signature on it and I didn't even need it. Further, the rest of the inflation we are experiencing today was the result of Fed "helicopter money" policy during the Trump and Biden administrations in response to the pandemic.
The current spending by Biden is now in the pipeline and will manifest itself a year or so from now. I understand that whoever is in the White House always gets the blame. That is the nature of the job.
Listening to Republicans who blew a hole in the deficit under Trump sanctimoniously claim the mantle of fiscal responsibility is ridiculous. (But politically effective).
Our functioning government, which I fear we will lose, is the main reason for our capitalist triumph. Without it. Good luck.
I've made hundreds of posts here about the permanent damage that Trump has done to republican minds in convincing them that he won the 2020 election.
Donald Trump should be in prison but at the very least, receive harsh penalties, including being banned from ever holding political office again.
However, the rhetorical narrative that we have to vote democrats forever or lose our democracy because so many republicans believe that Trump won in 2020has gotten very old for me.
If you buy that one, Joe Biden, the worst president in my life time should never be held accountable for the damage he's done the last 2 years with his horrible policies. I get that he didn't cause many of the problems but a president with control of Congress should make problems better not even worse to much worse.
If you remember, interestingly, the democrats and mainstream media at this point in the Trump presidency, before the mid term elections were claiming that Trump had colluded with Russia to win and they were suggesting that the presidency was not legitimate. With the Mueller investigation almost 2 years old, we were told that he was amassing a mountain of evidence to use against Donald Trump for colluding with Russia. We were told that this collusion between Trump and Russia caused Hillary Clinton to lose and she should have been our president.
Turns out that Mueller had nothing on Trump colluding and they knew it wasn't true early on they dragged the investigation on for that exact affect...........maximizing the length of time for the dems and MSM to repeat the false narratives about Trump. With Mueller creating most of the crimes FROM the investigation by tricking Trump people into lying about things they already had the answer to, then charging them with perjury.
So its cool when your side believes stuff about election fraud that didn't exist but not when the other side does it. Regardless, 2022 was 2 years ago and our democracy completely weathered that storm and came out shining brightly.
Every legal challenge to the 2022 election came out with the right conclusion and confirmed the results. Every recount confirmed the results. Every legit investigation confirmed the results. There were no states that changed from D to R. There were no changes in the electoral vote count despite Trump's monumental efforts and effectiveness in bamboozling republicans.
It was the most tested and proven secure election in history, including the process afterwards that verified the results over and over and over.
What in that, makes people think that now we are in danger in losing our democracy?
Just like Mueller had to provide actual evidence to prove Trump colluded and failed miserably, republicans will need to provide evidence if they want to overturn an election. They failed miserably 2 years ago and there's no evidence that something is suddenly different that will cause them to get away with it next time. In fact, it's less likely because we learned alot from what happened last time and the system is based on rules and laws that were not revoked.
Any revoking of election laws or making new laws must take place based on passing legislation using our current system and elected officials. If changes are made, they are applied to BOTH parties. If people vote for those elected officials that have a platform to make those changes, that's not a threat to our democracy.......that's actually how our democracy works!
It's not a threat to our democracy only when the policies are not what you agree with.
Do you think the Capital building will have better security next time?
Of course it will. We learned a lot of things from that, even if tens of millions of Rs still think that Trump won.
On to what the elections should REALLY be about next week. It's a referendum on the performance of the party in charge.
Should people be most concerned with Trumps failed attempts to overturn an election 2 years ago (Rs believing him and/or being supported by him) or should they be more concerned with inflation, the economy, extremely high crime rates, energy security, border security, abortion and health care?
The first one gives Biden a cart blanche free pass with no accountability. The 2nd one takes out Donald Trump (which is the Ds favorite tactic to get people to over look Bidens incompetence) and holds Biden accountable for what Biden did wrong as well as rewards Biden for things that President Biden did well.
The 2nd one is exactly what the Ds DON'T want. It's why Biden has a very low rating. Make this election, not about Biden but about Trump people in the republican party that will destroy our democracy.
The Biden MAGA rhetoric, while hitting on some good points about accepting election results and violence has actually been very counterproductive/divisive and helped to unite the right. It lacks objectively as it never mentions violence from the left, against entities like the Supreme Court or republicans like Rand Paul or the 2020 Summer long riots that killed many people and destroyed billions in property. Those are ok because they were justified by a cause the left believes in.
On inflation and energy. Biden likes to blame Putin. When he does that, his position is that President Putin has more influence/control over the USA in those realms than President Biden does.
His sworn mission for years was to eliminate fossil fuels. Then, when those words turned into policies that started severely affecting the energy markets.....he acted like he never said or did those things and put all the blame on greedy big oil, price gouging Americans, while pretending that he's been trying to get them to produce more oil/gas to help Americans(and not really kill them off).
What party just passed the "Fake" Inflation Reduction Act? which will not only help kill fossil fuels but also CAUSE inflation.
It's actually the same bill as the Climate Bill renamed to trick gullible Americans very concerned about historically fast rising inflation into thinking that it will do the complete opposite of what it will really do.
Climate spending thanks to the Inflation Reduction Act may end up as high as $1 trillion, says political science professor Leah Stokes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 trillion is alot of money to promote crony capitalism based on governmental funding of diffuse, intermittent energy sources, like wind turbines, the energy source from environmental hell. It kills millions of birds/bats, tears up massive land in mining and destroys landscapes/ecosystems to replace the fuel that's greening up the planet with beneficial CO2. The building block for all of life which is massively increasing food production/crop yields.
Biden is pretending to be saving the planet while actually wrecking the planet and destroying the US economy and energy security. Every person that played a role in the blatant deception, MISrepresenting this bill should be fired. Every person that has an agenda that includes the policies in this bill needs to be voted out of office ASAP before the blue print to plans for energy suicide can be imposed on our country.
But flushing 1 trillion down the fake green toilet with the fake Inflation Reduction Act is nothing compared to the total cost to electrify the entire grid in the US using solar, wind and batteries.
That cost is conservatively estimated to be 433 trillion, 20 times the GDP! In words.......impossible. But it's not just a matter of imposing whatever portion of the fake green, anti environmental policies. The more we commit to this, the higher the damage.
Continuing down this destructive path which Biden brags is one of his biggest accomplishments is the quickest, most effective way to hurt our country.
Biden is, incredibly even draining our long term oil/energy security SPR for a political agenda
This thread says it all about Biden's energy policies that includes some good additional links:
Draining the SPR for self serving politics-NTR
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/89811/
Are we supposed to ignore all that and instead, endorse his parties policies and people next week, a recipe for disaster for the sole reason that the R party is loaded with people that think (or claim) that Trump won in 2022?
Hey Mike,
1) The fact that there are tens of millions who still believe the 2020 election was stolen remains a very dangerous and potentially destabilizing factor that has to be dealt with for who knows how long. In other words, the Big Lie's damage continues and may lead to a lot worse than 1/6/21.
2) Meanwhile, the GOP is being taken over more and more by this dangerous faction due to these tens of millions. As they vote more of these folks in place in 2022, a higher % of the GOP would become filled by governors, state judges, state legislators, and US legislators from this awful faction. And not to be minimized, a higher % of Secretaries of State would come from this faction either via election or by appointment from governors. This is all setting up for a potential redo of the Big Lie in 2024. Then it becomes increasingly likely they'll succeed this time because of more of the dangerous faction being in the positions I listed. To me, they are all traitors against our current form of government and the US Constitution.
3) For my ballot's 11 races, I voted 6 Dems and 5 Pubs. The 6 Dems were for the most part running against Big Lie promoting Pubs. The 5 Pubs were all anti-Big Lie and ran against opponents in the primary who were Big Lie promoters although I also liked them enough in other ways to vote for them. Back in the primary, I chose to vote GOP and voted against all Big Lie promoters.
Thanks Larry,
Up until recently, I thought the same thing too.
In 2021, I was contacted by 2 different political research firms that asked me tons of questions on my opinions and plans to vote.
For both, my response was "whoever is supported by Donald Trump, I will vote for the other person even if I don't know anything else"
As this election started getting closer and I objectively looked at all the important factors, I had to be more open minded with all the facts in order to come to a discernment that dialed out me hating Donald Trump and the Big Lie so much that I vowed to vote against anybody that's supported by him............no matter how bad the other person is or how bad the agenda on the other side.
A bright light went off in my head that made me realize that my non negotiable voting solution that rejected anything or anybody connected to the Big Lie was in many cases MUCH worse because of the actual problems posed by completely ignoring the damage the other person's agenda would cause to this country(based on MY perceptions)
Regardless, I would never vote for Trump, even if .........anybody ran against him. That's non negotiable forever, he's not qualified.
However, I was able to separate my hatred and feelings about Trump and what he did and realize too, that the threat that you are afraid of has no evidence to support it.
" And not to be minimized, a higher % of Secretaries of State would come from this faction either via election or by appointment from governors. This is all setting up for a potential redo of the Big Lie in 2024. Then it becomes increasingly likely they'll succeed this time because of more of the dangerous faction being in the positions I listed."
Obviously you are not listening to me but if that were going to be the case, then Trump would have successfully flipped at least 1 state or got some electoral votes.
But he didn't do it because he couldn't do it. You speculate that if we get enough corrupt republicans in, they will somehow be able to do fake recounts that are impossible now. And the legal challenges, will somehow no longer follow the same laws/rules they did in every previous election because these corrupt republicans will have too much power and somehow not follow laws. Maybe they will rewrite laws? I'm really not sure what your thinking here is but if they did do that, do you know what the self correcting mechanism is?
The next election. That's how our democracy works.
I totally understand your thinking here Larry About Trump, however. As mentioned, that was my exact thinking until recently.
I know many Catholics that think like you but use the topic of abortion to decide who to vote for. Not much else matters to them if one person is pro choice and the other is pro life. This usually means republican.
That's another thing that I adjusted my position on recently. Softening my strong PRO LIFE position to much better understand the pro choice position. Same with my wife.
I'm certainly an oddball for actually reflecting on and questioning my political positions and making adjustments and would never expect that of others in today's world. It's easier to do for me from practicing the scientific method everywhere in my life.
Regardless, I already stated my rationale in the previous post and completely understand that's not the way that you look at it. ........which is your right.
Knowing how much you hated Trump before the election, makes it even easier to understand your position today. I realize there is nothing that anybody can state to you to change your mind and am not trying to do that.
I don't think that I hate Trump but I intensely despise what he's done and wish strongly for more serious consequences to come to him so he's held accountable for his actions.
This election is not about the president that lost in 2020 and a very speculative theory that voting for his party will lead to losing our democracy. Its about the president in office, along with a referendum on his parties policies the past 2 years(the one making all the key decisions controlling our current/future path).......like every other mid term election in history has been about.
The graph below didn't happen because of anything that Trump or republicans did.
https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/
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CNN —
CNN released a new national pollon Wednesday that made a single, stark point: This election is all about the economy.
A majority – 51% – of likely voters said that the economy was the most important issue in determining how they will vote in the midterms. (The next biggest issue, abortion, drew just 15%.)
Hours later, President Joe Biden delivered a much-publicized address on the perils facing US democracy.
“We can’t take democracy for granted any longer,” he warned in a speech that set apocalyptic stakes for the coming election.
That contrast – between what’s on the mind of voters and what the president wants to talk about – was stark. Especially when you consider just 9% of likely voters in the CNN poll said that voting rights and election integrity were the most important issues to their vote for Congress.
The Point: Biden’s decision to use his bully pulpit – just days before the election! – to give a speech about democracy seems like a strategic blunder given what we know about the electorate and its priorities.
++++++++++++++
Just another clear example of Biden being completely clueless about what's actually important to Americans and going in the opposite direction of what Americans want.
When CNN calls him out for this, you know its pretty bad. This speech likely LOST votes for democrats because it reminded voters of exactly why they don't like Biden.
I believe you have reached the wrong conclusion on Biden's choice to raise the issue.
1. He is correct. Democracy is on the ballot. One MAGA candidate proclaimed "If I am elected, Republicans will never lose another election in this state." Do I need to connect the dots for you????
2. With the inflation hurting voters, I don't see a plausible way for him to talk about his economic "success". I would mention the favorable jobs numbers, but I think inflation is the bigger issue. He owns it whether he likes or not, although it has been in the pipeline with the Money Supply explosion due to the pandemic relief from the previous administration in the trillions.
3. When a politician brings up an issue that appeals to the base (a minority of the voters) it is because he wants to fuel the voter turnout numbers of his base. It isn't a great strategy, but it is about all he has got.
Yes, I agree with you that he was focusing on what he thinks is his best shot and realizing his short comings/failures. That's an excellent point.
That strategy does make complete sense, now that you mention it.
If the topic of his best shot is not what's important to American voters and his big speech is about something that he has over his opponent(which is very true) but not important to voters, it's an admission of failure too on every topic important to voters.
All the voter important topics the he and his party had opportunities to make critical decisions about he's failed at.
He can't honestly brag about getting his fake Inflation Reduction Act passed (was supposedly his biggest accomplishment) because it's going to end up being government spending/wasting another 1 trillion dollars which increases pressure on inflation. And to KILL fossil fuels, the exact thing that he vowed to do when he started as president and has 100% backfired.
2 years ago, he made saving the planet from a fake/manufactured climate crisis his battle cry. You can fool people into thinking that you can defy the laws of physics and energy for a made up cause. That's called chicanery. Since it's impossible, at some point the scheme will unravel.
Same thing with a fake Inflation Reduction Act or dotting our landscapes with the unsightly monstrosities known as wind turbines, the energy source from environmental hell and calling it "green" energy.
Crony capitalism and politics at its worst that can never work in the real world.
"1. He is correct. Democracy is on the ballot. One MAGA candidate proclaimed "If I am elected, Republicans will never lose another election in this state." Do I need to connect the dots for you????"
I feel the exact opposite way on this and Biden's approval ratings and the shellacking coming up are real world evidence. That's how it always works, joj. If somebody is elected and they underperform/do a poor job, they get fired the next time they run for re election or their party suffers when it doesn't perform to expectations.
Your speculative theory on MAGA candidates winning and being somehow able to defy this with corruption to fool everybody once they have power defies this principle.
This is actually why the mid terms are often bad for the party in power. It's because the OPPOSING PARTY is unhappy and has an opportunity to unite over what the party in charge caused to make them unhappy and they want changed.
There is absolutely no legit reason to think that if MAGA people win, this long expressed principle will be flushed down the toilet and people on the left and in the middle will all give up and accept what they don't like for the first time in American history.
That's actually the most important part of our democracy! If you don't like somebody or what they are doing in office, the people have the power to decide to fire him when he/she runs next time.
That's EXACTLY what got Trump fired in 2020. Millions saw NOT Donald Trump on the ballet and voted in RECORD numbers for that person. Pure democracy in action with the king of MAGA running and being soundly defeated.
The last 2 years are all about Joe Biden as they should be. NOT Joe Biden is one of the voters favorite choices in 2022. Biden's desperation speech only helped to remind many voters of that.
If in 2024 and onward, MAGA candidates keep winning it will only be because MAGA candidates are doing things that make the majority of people happy with the direction the country is going in.
Nobody will be stealing votes...........they will be EARNING them the way its always been done.
If Trump runs again in 2024 or announces his candidacy, I hope to still be here then to see the most unqualified person in history get crushed and will make a hundred+ posts with evidence for him to be unqualified between then and the election.
Most people know that the reason Ds will not do even worse next Tuesday is BECAUSE OF Trump. Bidens speech tried to tap into that NOT Donald Trump fever that got him elected. But voters are not seeing NOT Donald Trump next Tuesday, so that won't work even if Ds want it to.
Many will see NOT Joe Biden on the ballet box. A person with a low approval rating is not going to be a very effective spokesperson for a cause that he's failed at.
Without question, Joe Biden is hurting his party more than he's helping his party overall. If you read the comments from democrats after his speech, that is pretty clear.
I sincerely feel for you guys and take no joy in thinking about how it affects you and actually feel bad about that aspect of it.
Larry, I know that you hate Trump's guts and everything that he stands for, including candidates associated with him.
joj, as a democrat, watching this unfold is especially frustrating and painful.
The thing that makes it toughest is its coming after Trump lost by every legit legal standard in 2020, and the dems took control of politics after that.......which was a massive victory for your side.
Being a huge University of Michigan football fan, I was spoiled by decades of great teams. So when they had some bad years recently, it was brutal for us fans that had been spoiled by years of success.
When you're on top............you have that much farther to fall.
Success/failure is not always based on an absolute, where you are but on a relative where you came from compared to where you are......... and this is the best indicator of where you're headed.
In this discussion, I've vehemently attacked Joe Biden for his energy policies.
However, I'm still for universal health care, helping the poor/minorities/LGBT and more legal immigration and have even softened my pro life position towards the left.
This is not and will never be a me vs you or me vs anybody realm. Please know that.
Many Americans not strongly committed to party line voting will be thinking about whether they are better off than 2 years ago in deciding how to vote next week.
Republicans want to blame all of it on Biden. Democrats want to blame most of it on forces that he can't control.
I see him almost never making things better and often making them worse to sometimes making them much worse.
Making his mission to eliminate fossil fuels because of a fake climate crisis and obliterate US energy security/independence, by itself is impossible to get past because I'm extraordinarily educated on the authentic science and truth........which he profoundly violates in every way on that topic.
I'm not a republican.