THANK YOU!! FREEDOM IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT, FOR ME.
GREEDOM, IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT, FOR THOSE MAKING THE RULES
Mcfarm,
I like stossal a great deal but he’s completely ignoring the key factor.
BEFORE the vaccines came to the rescue and BEFORE we had built up immunity in the general population and with the more deadly Omicron raging our hospitals were beyond full in many places, especially the urban areas. There were many people that needed to be in the ICU…..that couldn’t go there because the ICUs were over capacity.
there was no choice but to take extreme lock down measures until the rate of severe sickness and dying slowed to a rate that our hospitals were capable of providing life support and care for the dying For.
I have a nephew who is a respiratory therapist who was traveling to different states and making 3 times his normal wage because they didn’t have enough specialists and places for people dying with COVID to go.
now that we are living with COVID…….having vaccines and immunity, people are comparing it and saying…..see, we should have just done this from the get go, look how great it’s working now.
we also have paxlovid and another drug that stops COVID from replicating and is saving many lives for the vulnerable that were dying at an incredibly high rate.
all those people stating that today are conveniently ignoring the stone cold hard facts that dictated the necessity for the extreme measures.
I was against lock downs too…..except there was no choice. Not having lock downs would have caused a massive increase of hundreds of thousands of additional deaths.
many rural areas would have been fine without lockdowns but many urban areas already had a crisis of epic proportion that was beyond being managed
the biggest mistake has been not to push the N95 masks that actually work in the general population.
cloth masks help a little, especially from keeping a contagious person from infecting others……when they shouldn’t be out to begin with but people to this day have no idea that N95 masks are probably 10 times more effective at protecting you.
why else would most people still be wearing cloth masks and not N95 masks.
I had a doctors appointment yesterday and forgot they still require a mask. So they have me a mask……a cloth mask.
these are medical facilities and they still follow dumb rules.
if you’re going to require a mask, at least hand out masks that work.
N95 masks are more expensive and handing those out would be costly. You get what you pay for.
Jean,
im all about freedom but nobody has the right to do things that increase the chances of other people getting very sick and dying.
not theoretically causing this but rock solid scientifically and indisputable medically proven, causing an increase in the deaths of other people.
your right to swing your fist ends where my face/nose begins.
"your right to swing your fist ends where my face/nose begins."
YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT, MIKE. THE KEY IS: IS THE ONE THAT'S GETTIN' THE FIST THROWN AT THEM, FAST ENOUGH ON THEIR FEET TO DODGE IT?
LOL
I was against lock downs too…..except there was no choice. Not having lock downs would have caused a massive increase of hundreds of thousands of additional deaths MM
what about those who believe the lock downs {again for the thousandth time, except for the older and those who had health issues} only slowed the general populations ability to grow immune from covid . And then there is that ugly factor of the mess we have with our youth who are now even further behind in education and emotional growth. And the even uglier Money factor Jean brought up. No one can honesty say money was not a huge factor.
I NEEDED SOME MORE CANCER REMOVED, A FEW MONTHS BACK. THEY GAVE ME A MASK TO WEAR. LOL I DID WEAR IT ~ DANGLING FROM MY LEFT EAR. HAHAHAAA
what about those who believe the lock downs {again for the thousandth time, except for the older and those who had health issues} only slowed the general populations ability to grow immune from covid
mcfarm,
Of course it slowed our ability to grow immune to it, that was the entire point. Did you not even read this post?
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/92256/#92260
"there was no choice but to take extreme lock down measures until the rate of severe sickness and dying slowed to a rate that our hospitals were capable of providing life support and care for the dying For."
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We had to slow down the virus from infecting people because there wasn't any room in many urban hospitals and ICU units and we had no immunity and no effective treatments yet.
Had they NOT done the lockdowns it would have been MUCH worse and your statement acknowledges that totally. You say we should have been MORE exposed, earlier to get the immunity over with........you are right about the effect.........doing as you suggested, would have been the exact recipe for many more people to die in that first year........for the reason that you give.
1. There was no treatment
2. There was no vaccine.
3. Imparting quicker immunity on the population dying at an incredible rate early on by having a policy that resulted in more exposure to them would have absolutely caused MUCH MORE death.
Were the lockdowns worth 10s of thousands of lives? Or until the rate of infection slowed down to a rate our medical community was designed to treat?
For me, the answer is yes and no acknowledging that we went way OVER board with lockdowns in many cases. They were imposed on communities where the lock downs were not justified from the local stats as they were justified in communities where the hospitals couldn't take any more patients and the death rates were astronomical.
I totally understand the tremendous damage to the rest of society but the question is, was it worth saving the lives and getting control of treatment for the very sick in the many urban areas being decimated?
Ask most health care workers in hospitals swamped at that time if they felt their freedom was being taken away by doing the thing most likely to get it under control.
Sometimes, huge sacrifices must be made to help the vulnerable people and the medical profession in a crisis when the benefits outweigh the negatives.
You have a rural thinking mind. In 2020/21 the rural areas were not getting obliterated like the urban areas.
Ironically, after the rural people rejected the vaccines and urban areas embraced them, most of the deaths were coming from rural areas because they were not immunized from the vaccines they wouldn't get.
It's true:
90,000 US COVID-19 deaths could have been prevented
Started by metmike - Jan. 9, 2022, 4:23 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/80126/
Have you noticed the rate of dying for the vulnerable people plunged after the vaccines and treatments came on board?
The anti vaxx people will have you believe horse manure..........that the vaccines are causing deaths and not as effective as getting COVID. So COVID vaccinations are bad or only people at risk of dying from COVID should be vaccinated.
That's laughable. Getting COVID without being vaccinated was almost a death sentence for the extremely vulnerable. The first year, the only way to effectively protect those people was to try to slow down the virus as much as possible with lock downs.
I realize that you reading/listening to almost 3 years of COVID(vaxx) DISinformation at sources like FOX can;t be neutralized with a couple of posts based on science and facts at MarketForum.
just a second on the shortage of health care workers, At the start they were HEROS with Biden, Fauci and the CDC leading the way with daily pressers claiming these people were the greatest. Then they fired bunch of them because not everyone wanted to a vaxx that had not been properly tested and no one to this day knows the long term affects....including many young people with sudden cardiac events. Such stupidity led to the shortages you mentioned. Many undefinables and variables still in play here including the very birth of the damn thing most likely with the Chinese funded by the US
a vaxx that had not been properly tested and no one to this day knows the long term affects
mcfarm,
You're an encyclopedia of COVID and COVID vaxx disinformation, thanks to so much time spent believing Tucker and similar sources.
There has never been a vaccination with any where close to the enormous REAL WORLD jabs of REAL people to observe the effects.
Gunter used to insist that it altered our DNA.
Exactly what long term effects are going to suddenly emerge after billions of people have been vaccinated, years later?
That's just a crazy speculative theory with nothing but massive data to prove it dead wrong......used to scare people that don't understand science and especially because.....if they had real science to show the vaccine had serious affects that were greater than the disease, they wouldn't stoop to using anti science/MISinformation.
However, there has been a small % of young men that have temporary myocarditis after receiving the vaccine.........
it estimates there have been 52.4 cases and 56.3 cases per million doses of Pfizer's and Moderna's vaccines, respectively.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm
Compare that number above with the number of 56 cases per million that get it from the COVID jab.
And that's ignoring the dozens of other issues that COVID causes that are completely absent after the vaccine and the vaccine helps to protect you from.
If you want to increase your chances of getting myocarditis, then DON'T get vaccinated because the biggest risk, by far is from getting COVID (even though there is a very small risk of getting it from the jab).
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mcfarm,
I know that it's a waste of time having a conversation with you about this but as moderator with a commitment to truth and science here.........anytime you blather on with DISinformation, I will confront you with science and truth/authentic data/evidence.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/92044/#92048
I will always try to be open minded and to learn new things........which happens all the time.
For instance, jean taught me something amazing about wind turbines after I spent years discussing them here.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/92174/#92178
And about trading too:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/92235/
MM, some free advice for you. To learn who rules over you simply identify who you cannot criticize. Don't know who to credit that phrase to but there are few more accurate about covid and its affect on America.
several random thoughts.
we should not make a big generalization about covid shots and their effect on public health. the first year and first couple variants, old people with other big health risks did benefit somewhat from vaccinations. but this is not true as much so this last year with the last couple variants.
younger healthy people generally do ok without being vaccinated. and might have a bigger risk from the vaccine itself.
the study out of oxford medical team showed that vaccinted people were far more likely to spread covid, than unvaccinated people. this is the opposite of what all the health "experts" were telling us. so if my 20 year old son does not get vaccinated, then NO he is not putting others at risk.
places with strict mask mandates did not have any better health outcomes than places without those mandates. (our prof of microbiology at the local college will tell you why masks do not work as well as what people think).
places with lockdowns did not have better health outcomes than places without lockdowns. but lockdowns DID destroy lots of folks businesses. this was Bad overall.
the bigger problem is that we only have 2 years of data. so it is very BAD to think we should use a fascist regime to force one narrative on everyone, when it comes to covid. the science is Not that simple.
with a flu shot we have 60 years of data, so it we can be more comfortable about the effects, outcomes, etc. and whether we know how things will work for most people
here is the one thing that surprised me... how quickly some people were willing to accept fascism in the name of "science". (even tho the science was shaky and still evolving).
if we have 60+ years of data on polio vaccines, then i am more comfortable that we understand the risk, etc, when the school tells me that my child needs a polio vaccine to be in school . but with only 2 or 3 years of data about covid i would absolutely say NO, the school should Not mandate covid vaccines.
Thanks bear!
I agree on the masks.
places with lockdowns did not have better health outcomes than places without lockdowns
Just one huge problem with that. Many of the places that had lockdowns did so because they were being obliterated by COVID.
Everybody didn't start from scratch, then everything else being equal except for the lock downs vs no lock downs.
This is extremely flawed/misleading science.
That would be like an outbreak of a contagious bacterial disease that was MUCH worse in some regions so that they required everybody to take antibiotics in the really bad spots but the ones where the outbreak was modest- no antibiotics.
Guess which region will end up having the lowest rate of infection?
The treatment did not cause the disease/outbreak, instead the disease was already a crisis outbreak BEFORE the lockdown.
After the dust settled, they compared the rate of COVID in lockdown areas to non lockdown areas.
The lockdowns helped curb the crisis level at a critical time when hospitals were at or over capacity in urban areas.. Most of the non lockdown areas, especially rural places never escallated to a crisis level.
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What we can say with certainty, is that after the vaccines were available, those same rural areas with no lockdowns earlier were getting crushed by COVID and the population dense urban areas that had the higher rate before the vaccine.........had much lower rates.
In that example, the main difference was vaccine or no vaccine.
However, places getting vaccinated also had more lockdowns. Places refusing to get vaccinated.......had MANY more deaths.
It's true:
90,000 US COVID-19 deaths could have been prevented
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/80126/#80127
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No question that in year 2 of COVID, the urban areas that had lockdowns and used vaccines did MUCH better than the rural areas without the lock downs that supposedly let natural immunity run its course instead of getting vaccinated.
They did worse BEFORE lockdowns/vaccines but applying the science/actions caused them to end up doing much better than areas pf no lock downs & low vaccine rates.
The compelling data above tells us that exactly. Urban areas that got vaccinated did extremely better than rural areas that relied on natural immunity and no lock downs.