again, if DOJ wants to play that game they better include Hil, Biden and Pence....otherwise drop it.
mcfarm,
I know that you are unable to see the difference.
Trump totally brought this on himself, reacting completely the opposite from the others, that followed laws and cooperated when they were contacted.
Trump on the other hand, went insanely defiant claiming that he had a right to all the documents(dead wrong) and any other documents that he classified in his mind without telling anybody.
His only defense is that he's mentally ill with delusions of grandeur and sees himself as omnipotent and unable to comprehend following laws because his imagined powers enable him to be the authority of the laws.
That seems pretty hard to believe even though he acts like that.
It seems likely that most of this could be him conniving and using this as a ruse to cause more attacks on him so that he can use his most powerful dynamic to tighten the grip on far right brains .............selling his victimization.
You see his support numbers. They were plunging until he suddenly got charges brought against him.
One would have to be blind to not see the strong correlation that no other candidate has to this extent and think that Trump, who brags about it would not exploit this dynamic to the max.
His actions, every step of the way in this case are totally consistent with this being an intentional way to maintain his support.
You have to also remember that he helped produce his TV show, The Apprentice because he felt strongly about understanding people enough to write scripts that would manipulate people for ratings.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/96041/#96094
Trump is a powerful, charismatic cult leader that sees the weaknesses of his victims, who worship the ground he walks on and he plays into that to control them.
The FBI, as described/demonstrated in previous posts above, is also about using their tremendous power to control people thoughts and actions and the outcomes of elections.
Previous threads:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95310/
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95310/#95992
Trump: I could shoot somebody and not lose voters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTACH1eVIaA
Biden and Trump
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95155/
Something Is Seriously Wrong with Trump
Earlier this month, after analyzing all the corruption of the Bidens and damage he's done to Ukraine and the world, I stated that I could vote for Trump if I thought it would end the war and save lives/attrocities.
This thread reminds me of why I should never vote for Trump.
How insane is it that the only 2 candidates that I can never vote for are the same 2 leading by a wide margin )-:
followed the laws and fully cooperated???? WTF and you have the nerve to say I am the one who cannot see the difference. Hill followed the law...pardon me while I puke. Biden and Pence followed the law...just point out one sentence, any sentence in the Presidential papers act where it includes a VP. A VP out of office or another VP now out of office. Again we are or once were a country of laws. Not a country of laws that we might or might not enforce depending which side of the bed we got up from this morning.
Unlike you I have never been ok with one side getting hammered on this. Either both side or neither, sorry you have never conceded that laws and consequences should apply equally.
Like I often say in conversations like this, mcfarm.
It's not about who's right or who's wrong.
For instance, 2+2=4.
If somebody wants to have a debate because they think 2+2=5, I am more interested in analyzing the dynamics of how it came to be that they think 2+2=5.
Quite fascinating how so many humans can be convinced to believe things that are completely false based on all the authentic facts.
The Rap Eps conspiracy theory, for example. Blaming that guy and claiming he was an FBI plant trying to frame Trump, instead of Trump's 2 month long effort to try to overturn the results of the election. That one is more like 2+2=100 its so nonsensical.
It often boils down to these 2 biggest contributing elements.
1. It's something people want to believe. So they don't fact check, they just.......believe it.
2. It comes from a source that tells them only things they want to believe........that understands how to manipulate people.
Trump and Tucker have formed cults with millions of far right republicans believing all their hogwash because they are gifted, charismatic cult leaders using 2023 technology to capture brains which want to believe it all.
The war in Ukraine is another example. Based on lies and propaganda sold by the gatekeepers.
People can't see thru them and don't protest or insist on peace or negotiations.
Instead, they cheer for us to kill more Russians because we hate Russia and Putin so much that defeating him is the only option. We must defeat Russia and destroy Putin, this is the only thing that matters.
That's much more important than 500,000 human beings dying, the country of Ukraine being decimated, the US spending 130 billion that we cant afford (that could help people not kill them) and the entire world suffering consequences with the continued escalation potentially leading us to a nuclear war.
I've presented all the authentic facts several times here and I'll bet it didn't change any minds.
But the analysis of the dynamics is always fascinating and a great learning process for me to.
Same thing with the COVID vax DISinformation.
Same thing with the corrupt Mueller investigation. A Witch hunt.
Same thing with Trump's first impeachment....when he was trying to investigate the crimes we now know that Biden committed.
Same thing with George Floyd's death supposedly being a drug overdose.
Same thing with the fake climate crisis during this current climate optimum.
This DEFINES our politics and even our hijacked science.
People will cling to believing things they want to believe in and the gatekeepers of information understand with crystal clarity how to use that to manipulate people.
I've used this one dozens of times and often when somebody that I care about is being victimized by it.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/77011/#86468
The age of massive information and technology is also the age of abusing information to steal people's intelligence/brainwash them based on this:
People are extremely gullible because their overwhelming desire to believe in things that line up with their political ideology is greater than their desire to fact check the things that line up with what they want to believe!
This weakness is well known by some people, especially gatekeepers of messages, that manufacture realities and false narratives that are repeated over and over and spread by like minded sources to capture the minds of those that want to believe in it.
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https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/77011/#89534
Neither political party has a franchise on the truth.
If you believe one party all the time......................you will believe in lies some of the time.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Addition:
"The trick is being able to tell the difference between the truth and the lies, then picking the truth from BOTH parties and rejecting their lies.
What makes that incredibly difficult to do is that the stronger your affiliation to a party is, the more blindly you embrace all the tenets of their belief system!
+++++++
The thing that assists me greatly is that I vigorously fact check both sides and fact check myself before stating opinions here. It's called the scientific method, which most climate scientists have abandoned.
You show me where I'm wrong with facts..........and I will change my opinion immediately!
I just showed where your facts were terribly wrong. Yes other than illegally taking certain papers Pence did seem to cooperate fully. The rest of those mentioned including Trump did not even come close. So your facts are not facts. So if we could just apply the laws equally there would be no reason for any silly gray area debate.
mcfarm,
You keep believing in false things that Donald Trump tells you and those define topics for you. It is so because you want to believe those things and Trump uses that to manipulate you and 10s of millions of other Trump supporters.
Your version, is a perception of a reality that doesn't exist, except for the false reality invented by Donald Trump being used to manipulate you into thinking he's always a victim when he breaks laws and bumps heads with the entities that enforce laws.
You completely confuse those with authentic facts.
Again, you will never believe otherwise, no matter how many times I prove the authentic facts because, by definition, your mind is believing Donald Trump. Everything in your world is interpreted thru the Donald Trump belief system.
Anything that contradicts the Donald Trump belief system is automatically rejected.
You state Donald Trump nonsense and sincerely believe it to be facts proving me wrong.
You think that Trump as president had powers that don't exist to take whatever classified documents he wanted, without telling anybody.
That he can do whatever he wanted to with them. Put them where he wanted, discuss what's on them however he wanted. That the United States Constitution, gives a president some sort of imagined infallibility powers which allow them to violate all the laws which exist to protect very sensitive, classified documents protocol.
As if presidents don't need to follow the laws for all other people.
So the absurd rational is that VP Pence and VP Biden were breaking laws written for everybody............despite them immediately returning the documents but Trump was NOT breaking laws by refusing to return the documents and justifying having them with his delusional, infallibility as president mentality because, as I keep showing, he's afflicted with a mental disease:
And the reason this especially carry's the most weight with the far right is being convinced that Trump never does anything wrong and every attack on him is unjustified and the result of his enemies only doing this because he's Donald Trump, not because he did a thing wrong.
This is why anything that I ever state about this will never sink in. Just like it doesn't matter that for 2 months, Trump broke laws with several plots trying to overturn the most secure presidential election in history and caused the Insurrection.....but you believe he's innocent and that Ray Epps and the FBI caused it to set him up.
There is nothing I can do or say to change you being convinced that Trump is always a victim and that the only way to fight this injustice is to support Donald Trump. That is the belief system of the far right by definition.
This is the entire reason that Trump is ahead in the polls by a wide margin and there is nothing anybody can do to change that.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/96365/#96367
Tenets of the Donald J. Trump cult
1. Though shalt not criticize Donald Trump
2. Though shalt not disobey Donald Trump's orders
3. Donald Trump is ALWAYS a victim
4. Those that attack Donald Trump are evil and the enemy
5. The only way to defeat evil and "drain the swamp" is thru Donald Trump
6. The only way to salvation is thru Donald Trump
7. The 2020 presidential election was stolen from Donald Trump
8. When Republicans lose elections, the swamp was cheating
9. On Jan. 6th 10s of thousands of peaceful protesters came out to support President Trump. They were incited to riot by an FBI plant, Ray Epps. President Trump told them to be peaceful and even called thousands from the National Guard that day for additional security but Nancy Pelosi called them off in order to frame Trump.
10. The violent/deadly riots in the Summer of 2020 that let most of the crimes go unprosecuted is evidence that people that committed crimes during the Insurrection attempt are innocent and being singled out because they support Donald Trump(victim narrative).
11. The January 6th Committee made up all the facts that were presented, even though the vast majority of their witnesses were Republicans with accurate, verified evidence, none that were contradicted with credible information outside of the hearings.
12. The judges are all biased against Trump.
13. Tucker Carlson holds the most esteemed, high priest position in the cult and is considered to be another infallible source of information. This far right charlatan has built his own cult by using the same technique's and lies that Trump uses to capture far right brains...... even though his emails told us how he really feels.......the truth that Tucker knows contradicts what he states for ratings so that he can lure the far right into tuning into his shows.
This cult, is not the only one dominating people's belief systems.
The fake climate crisis is another one.
Somehow, a beneficial gas, that's greening up the planet by 26% compared to when it was 130 parts per million less and plants were experiencing CO2 starvation has been been falsely defined as pollution.
That cold killing 15 times more humans and 200 times more life doesn't matter.
That the best weather and climate in the last 1,000 years.........is a crisis.
That we should believe that this climate crisis is killing all the good life.....crops, trees, tree frogs, butterflies, honey bees, bunny rabbits, polar bears, humans, coral reefs, marine life etc while at the same time the exact same weather/climate and CO2 is causing all the bad life to explode higher. and flourish and prey on the good life....ticks, fleas, mosquitoes, diseases, virus's, bacteria, weeds.
CO2= pollution killing good life
CO2 = beneficial to all bad life
As if good life has an optimal global temperature..........the one on the planet before humans started burning fossil fuels.
As if good life likes cold but bad life likes heat.
What happens to good life (outside of humans) every Winter except in the tropics?
It dies or goes dormant or hibernates or struggles to survive.........until wonderful warmth returns in the Spring and food returns as plants come out of domancy and seeds germinate.
The truth is defined by the indisputable law of photosynthesis FOR ALL LIFE!
So mcfarm, I'm not picking on you or Trump. I'm just showing the truth and giving an example that you totally relate to because IT'S THE OTHER SIDE's cult based on the nonsense they've decided to believe.
try again. I said none of them except Pence including Trump cooperated. I said none of them qualify under the presidential papers act except Trump. Try reading without going off the deep end for no reason. I can read the law. now as to how it is applied in today's world I have no clue.
"I said none of them qualify under the presidential papers act except Trump"
https://www.archives.gov/news/topics/presidential-records-act
"Under the PRA, the official records of the President and his staff are owned by the United States, not by the President."
https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#June-9-2023-statement
Donald Trump is lying about the Presidential Records Act
+++++++++++++
I'm guessing that most people in the Trump cult will see this and it will be like a foreign language to their minds that they can't understand. They need Donald Trump to tell them how to interpret it.
I'm dead serious!
Let's help you out with authentic facts to ignore about what Trump REALLY did that got him in all this trouble:
William Barr Eviscerates Mark Levin's Defense Of Donald Trump Following Indictment
Ron Dicker
·2 min read
In this article:
Former Attorney General William Barr called out Fox News host Mark Levin’s “farcical” defense of Donald Trump during a brutal Wednesday for the conservative outlet. (Watch the video below.)
Appearing on Bret Baier’s Fox News show, Barr reacted to a clip of Levin, a vociferous supporter of the former president, from an episode of “Hannity” the night before.
Levin had sought to justify Trump’s possession of classified documents at his Florida estate, for which Trump was recently indicted.
“His power comes from the Constitution,” said Levin, who was chief of staff for then-Attorney General Edwin Meese during Ronald Reagan’s presidency. “He is a third branch of government. Him. He alone. Everything else flows from him!”
Baier noted to Barr, who was nominated to the AG post by Trump in 2018, that Levin was saying the Presidential Records Act protects Trump.
“The position is being taken that this is really just a document dispute over custody of documents and the president has good arguments as to why he should have kept them — I think the arguments are farcical, and will be shown as such,” Barr said. “But I also think, more importantly, they’re a sidelight and they’re distracting from the real issue.”
Barr said the critical charges against Trump stem from obstruction for his alleged resistance after he was subpoenaed for the documents. Trump could have opposed the subpoena legally “but he did not,” Barr said.
“What did he do?” Barr continued. “He engaged in an outrageous act of obstruction and deception that obstructed that subpoena. And that is wrong. That’s a violation of law. That’s a serious problem for him.”
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metmike: Trump left them no option but to file charges because he refused to cooperate and follow the laws like the others have.
Trump is not a spy. Why is he charged under the Espionage Act?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/13/politics/espionage-act-trump-what-matters/index.html
“In this case, former President Trump hasn’t been charged with spying for a foreign government, or espionage as we normally think about it, but he has been charged with willfully withholding national defense information – which is the way that a case like this is normally charged,” Cordero said.
She also noted that in the national security legal community, there is some discussion of separating laws related to national security information out from the Espionage Act.
An outline of laws related to classified and sensitive information by the Congressional Research Service describes a system “based on a complex and often overlapping set of statutes or individual provisions within statutes.”
There is no single law meant to cover all of these cases. While mishandling or inappropriately storing national security material is clearly a risk, one obstacle in convicting Trump could be that he did not appear to be using it against the United States – selling it or giving it to a foreign country – but rather just bragging about having it.
Here’s what the law says
The specific language in 18 US Code 793 (e), which is cited in the indictment against Trump, goes like this, and I’ve put the key portion in bold:
(e)Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or …
That’s the whole point here. The National Archives and the FBI tried repeatedly over time to get the material back. But the government has accused Trump of hiding from the government and his own lawyers.
That's why I'm convinced that anybody who would act this way MUST BE, either mentally ill or intentionally forcing the FBI to charge him with these crimes.
If he actually thinks that he did nothing wrong........he's mentally ill. No other way to interpret that.
If he knows he was violating the laws, then it was intentional. No other way to interpret that.
This would be a clever scheme to lock in his position as the R victim, being attacked by the deep state because only he can stop them. Rs must support him and his righteous cause because only he can stop deep state/justice department/dem corruption. It's Trump against all the bad guys. Never mind the fact that he's the only president in history that tried to overturn an extremely secure election, violating the Constitution and his oath, inciting an Insurrection.
Destroying our countries confidence in the most important process defining our democracy, elections, for decades.
How much more friggin corrupt and treasonous can you get?
Just because he can get the majority of Rs to believe lies about the facts above don't make them the truth. ........just like with the continued Big Lie fact below:
Virtually all Democrats (93%) say Biden won the election fairly, a view shared by 58% of independents. Just 21% of Republicans believe Biden won his election fair and square, while 68% say he won "due to voter fraud."
++++++++++++++++
Donald Trump is 100% responsible for this!
He's created a new strategy for Rs that lose elections. Claim fraud and Rs will believe it.
The ironic thing is that position by Rs IS KILLING THEM IN GENERAL ELECTIONS!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kari-lake-arizona-governor-race-loss-appeal-ruling/
+++++++++
Trump has divided the R party like no other person in history and united the D party like no other person from the other party.
He's the greatest gift to Ds in history by a wide margin.
And yet, Trump and R cheerleaders, strongly defend him based purely on having their minds taken over by Donald J Trump.
Maybe that should be the campaign slogan (-:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/desantis-open-pardoning-trump
TRUMP CERTAINLY OWNS YOUR MIND, MIKE!! LOLLOL
I DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S A CURE FOR THAT, EITHER........... HAHAHAHAHAAA
Fascinating!
"papers Pence did seem to cooperate fully. The rest of those mentioned including Trump did not even come close." Just how many ways can I say this. MM, You are arguing with your own brain. I have said this for the last time. This has been repeated by me over and over. This quote was taken from this very thread
Trump is ripping of his gullible followers. Using them to pay the legal fees to represent him for the legal defense of his crimes.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/31/politics/donald-trump-campaign-legal-defense-2024/index.html
The extent to which Trump’s 2024 campaign has merged with his legal defense as he faces multiple criminal charges was laid bare in news about his PAC’s expenditures, which are expected to be reported to the Federal Election Commission on Monday. The PAC, Save America, has spent more than $40 million on legal fees since the start of this year, a source familiar with the matter told CNN, which is more than double the amount the group spent on legal fees in all of 2022.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"There is absolutely NOTHING the Democrats could throw at President Trump to force him out of the presidential election."
++++++++++++++++
metmike: The ironic thing is that the democrats are watching Trump destroy his own party. They weren't the ones that tried to overturn the results of the most secure presidential election in history. They didn't violate the Constitution. It was Donald Trump that betrayed our democracy and every American and single handedly was responsible for the Insurrection(not Ray Epps). The Ds had nothing to do with Trump illegally taking CLASSIFIED documents, then refusing to return them, then trying to cover up the evidence.