22 responses | 0 likes
Started by 12345 - Sept. 13, 2023, 7:09 p.m.
By metmike - Sept. 14, 2023, 8:48 a.m.
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Thanks, Jean!

Tesla showing strength this year after the spike low in January! 

Can we clear the head and shoulders topping pattern below?

Solid closes above 300 would  partially reverse the especially negative outlook since we hit the spike top around 400 at the end of 2021.


By metmike - Sept. 14, 2023, 8:51 a.m.
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Previous threads on this topic:

                GOTTA LOVE THOSE GOVT.  EV ROAD TRIPS     

                       Started by 12345 - Sept. 12, 2023, 9:48 p.m.   https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/98928/


By joj - Sept. 14, 2023, 5:36 p.m.
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Copy pasted from US News and World Report

Tesla went public on June 29, 2010 at $17 per share. TSLA stock, however, opened for trading at $19 per share, and finished the day at $23.89 – a stellar one-day gain of 40.5%.

Return calculations for what an average investor would have earned can't realistically assume a purchase price of $17 per share, as retail investors essentially had no way to buy stocks at their actual IPO price in 2010.

In calculating returns, it's more practical to assume the early Tesla investor purchased shares at its closing price of $23.89. In fact, shares traded below those levels for the majority of normal trading hours, so even this price is somewhat conservative.

If that were all there was to the story, this investment would have walloped the wider market over the last 13 years, rising nearly sevenfold.

But due to several aggressive stock splits in recent years, Tesla's long-term performance is even more impressive. There have been two Tesla stock splits in its corporate history:

  • a 5-for-1 stock split on Aug. 31, 2020
  • a 3-for-1 stock split on Aug. 25, 2022

To compare apples to apples, this means that the cost basis of the initial purchase price should be divided by 15, as one share of Tesla stock in 2010 would have turned into 15 shares by 2023.
On a split-adjusted basis then, the closing price of Tesla stock on June 29, 2010 was $1.59.

At market close on April 6, the stock closed at $185.06 – more than 116 times its adjusted closing price on the first day of trading.

A $10,000 investment in TSLA on the day of its IPO would be worth more than $1.16 million as of April 6.

By metmike - Sept. 14, 2023, 10:04 p.m.
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Extremely impressive joj, thanks much!

By metmike - Sept. 19, 2023, 1:15 a.m.
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John Raymond Hanger @johnrhanger

Good morning with good news: US cumulative EV investment skyrocketed 5X or 400% since January 2022, rising from $32.6 billion to 165 billion! Since passage of IRA through August 10, 2023, $92.3 billion of EV investment flowed. Cost of EV batteries falls about 50% every 5 years.


By metmike - Oct. 11, 2023, 8:04 p.m.
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Interesting place for Tesla!


Most things about electric cars and fake green energy should cause them to fail miserably but when the government uses a trillion dollars(from tax payers) to push them, it forces THE GOVERNMENT'S choice on the markets...............temporarily. Eventually it all falls apart anyways and the government forcing a loser on the market has negative consequences that could have been avoided if free market conditions would have prevailed based on value and things that work best.

Instead of a superficial, subsidized, government supported market based on entities, NOT investing in value but instead betting on government's power to manipulate market conditions with it's seemingly infinite money supply that its willing to use for political agenda's. Some that create crony capitalism and unhealthy market dynamics which eventually collapse after X amount of time elapses and the ruinous dynamic imposed by the government can no longer be sustained.



If the Rs got control of both houses and the White House, electric cars and green energy would take a huge hit.

By 12345 - Oct. 12, 2023, 3:26 p.m.
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MIKE ~ "If the Rs got control of both houses and the White House, electric cars and green energy would take a huge hit."


By metmike - Oct. 26, 2023, 7:19 a.m.
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Elon Musk just lost $28 billion as Tesla suffered defeat.  Now Toyota says “people are waking up to the reality” that electric vehicle adoption will be an uphill battle



Previous threads:

                GOTTA LOVE THOSE GOVT.  EV ROAD TRIPS          

                                                          Started by 12345 - Sept. 12, 2023, 9:48 p.m.       


The Electric: The Valley of Death Takes Out Another EV Maker            

                            8 responses |         

                Started by metmike - Aug. 13, 2023, 7:29 a.m.            


Previous related threads:

                TSLA, NFLX                        

                Started by joj - July 20, 2023, 7:27 p.m.            


                EVs are a Tough Sell            

                                      Started by metmike - May 16, 2023, 9:03 p.m. 


                Tesla getting obliterated            

                            33 responses |            

                Started by metmike - Dec. 20, 2022, 6:44 p.m


Are Electric Vehicles About To Sweep The Country?            

                         Started by metmike - Feb. 27, 2023, 1:50 a.m.            


The EV Scamdemic


                Energy transition is a hoax            

                            Started by metmike - April 15, 2023, 5:50 p.m.            


   Lithium Batteries, Cobalt and the Congo            

                            Started by joj - Jan. 5, 2023, 7:53 p.m.            


NEW: Electric cars are not the solution:  Our mechanical engineer chimes in with great points.  November 2022 https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/90429/

California tells electric car owners NOT to charge vehicles. Energy crisis in California because of unreliable, fake green/anti environmental energy!September 2022 https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/8

By metmike - Oct. 26, 2023, 7:58 a.m.
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1. 10+ years. Major bull spike from government throwing money at electric car industry.  Top November 2021 at 400. Collapse to near 100 in  January 2023 as the negative reality of  electric cars in actual use by consumers hits. Recovery to near previous resistance close to 300.  Failed resistance, resulting in a POTENTIAL powerful head and shoulders top technical formation.  Currently flirting with previous major support area. Failure to hold here, is a dire, negative sign for this market.

2. 6 months-shows the break down with new downtrend

3. 1 month-shows the short term collapse-potential area of support???


                By metmike - Oct. 11, 2023, 8:04 p.m.            

Interesting place for Tesla!

Most things about electric cars and fake green energy should cause them to fail miserably but when the government uses a trillion dollars(from tax payers) to push them, it forces THE GOVERNMENT'S choice on the markets...............temporarily. Eventually it all falls apart anyways and the government forcing a loser on the market has negative consequences that could have been avoided if free market conditions would have prevailed based on value and things that work best.

Instead of a superficial, subsidized, government supported market based on entities, NOT investing in value but instead betting on government's power to manipulate market conditions with it's seemingly infinite money supply that its willing to use for political agenda's. Some that create crony capitalism and unhealthy market dynamics which eventually collapse after X amount of time elapses and the ruinous dynamic imposed by the government can no longer be sustained.


What's interesting is that my wife is working on a (non lithium) battery technology that has a great chance to save the electric car industry.


By joj - Oct. 28, 2023, 7:40 a.m.
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Notwithstanding the folly of government intervention, my brother bought an electric car (not a Tesla) and says that the cost of charging it saves him 70% when compared to a gas car.  At 25 miles per gallon, that would be 4,000 gallons.  Multiplying by 4$ / gallon = $16,000.  70% of $16,000 equals $11,200 in savings.  A car that goes 200,000 miles (not uncommon these days) would result in $22,400 in savings.  And, if the price of gas goes higher ...

I also know an Uber driver that is planning to buy a Tesla.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2023, 9:43 a.m.
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Thanks much, joj!

I  agree totally with your brother. It's very true that electric cars are great for many people that only use them in the city and the fuel cost IS cheaper.

If just THAT particular favorable cost comparison on fuel (and yearly maintainance) was the only element, electric cars would be a smart choice for everybody.

However, there are numerous serious problems related to charging times, battery ability to hold the  charge (which is greatly diminished with major cold) and distance on each charge. Battery longevity and resale prices are a huge problem too. 

My youngest son has a hybrid, which is what really makes sense. He says that he's getting 46 mpg!

Electric Cars vs Gas Cars Cost in Each State 2022


  • The average annual cost to run an electric vehicle in the USA is $3,679
  • When factoring in purchase cost, the average cost of an EV is $10,360 each year
  • The average annual cost to run a gas vehicle in the USA is $4,336      
  • When factoring in purchase cost, the average cost of a gas vehicle is $8,691 each year

The price difference for insurance between electric cars and gas cars is, on average, $418 cheaper to insure a gas vehicle.

The average annual cost of charging an electric vehicle in America is $755, referred to as the egallon, compared to the average refill cost for a gas car which is $1,615.

Across the states, the average cost of taxes for a gas car is $545 a year, compared to $827 for electric vehicles.

The maintenance cost for the average electric vehicle is $321 cheaper each year than a gas alternative.


Everything You Need to Know About Electric Vehicles    

Electric Vehicles - The Pros and Cons

When looking at electric vehicles versus gasoline-powered vehicles, there are various different benefits and potential disadvantages of owning an electric vehicle. 



Cost Of EV Batteries 

Electric vehicles are the most expensive when it comes to battery costs. A battery might cost between $4,000 and $20,000, depending on the brand and model of your vehicle. So, if you have owned the car for a while, and the warranty is void, you have no choice but to pay the asking price.

The materials used to produce EV batteries are the root cause of their high cost, as they include manganese, cobalt, and lithium, which aren’t cheap. Such materials are more expensive to obtain and work with, but the most expensive component of the battery is the cathode electrode found in each cell (51% of the battery cost). 

How Often Do EV Batteries Need To Be Replaced?

As you can tell, the batteries will last you for a while. Even if they don’t, you should have a warranty for eight years or 100,000 miles, which should cover the costs. For that matter, if you have any technical problems, its extensive coverage should more than deal with repair costs.

Even after eight years pass, the batteries will still have about 70% of their original capacity. And just because of that, you might not need a new battery for ten years or longer, with the only exception being the limited starting range of your car. In this case, you must consider getting a replacement out of pocket.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2023, 10:03 a.m.
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Independent of those costs discussed we have an extremely serious problem with electric cars:

                Re: Re: Re: Re: The Electric: The Valley of Death Takes Out Another EV Maker            



Biden’s EV Boondoggle is China’s Big Win

Posted toEnergy August 15, 2021 by


From: "The real environmental crisis's"


Concerns for mineral supply chain amid booming EV sales


The sales of electric cars are booming, but the rising demand for transition minerals will pose a challenge for the mining industry.


Who controls the EV supply chain?


Another challenge for the future supply chain is that unlike some fossil fuels, many of the minerals essential for EVs are produced in just a handful of countries. Over half of the supply of minerals needed for EV batteries comes from the top three producing countries.


In 2020, Australia was responsible for 48% of global lithium production. For graphite, China is the world’s main supplier, with nearly 79% of global production originating from the country. In the same year, the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) supplied 69% of global cobalt.



With regards to rare earth metals, China has most of them!


Infographic: China's Rare Earth Monopoly is Diminishing | Statista



Note the amount of reserves below:

World Mine Production and Reserves
(2020 Estimates)

(Metric Tons)
(Metric Tons)
United States38,0001,500,000
Burma30,000not available
Burundi500not available
Madagascar8,000not available
South Africa--790,000
Thailand2,000not available
Other Countries100310,000
World total (rounded)240,000

REE production chart



China Dominates the Rare Earths Supply Chain









Fossil fuels are their own batteries. The energy is stored in them.

The Wind Power Mirage



In addition, with the increasing demand from electric vehicles estimated to be +40% more on the power grid if we replaced all the combustion engine vehicles, the green energy fairy would need to cast a spell to generate that, especially since that same plan replaces fossil fuels (zero carbon emissions schemes).

They defy physical laws of energy.

2023: Current demand for electricity = Current supply for electricity

Green Fairy Tale Future: Current demand for electricity +40% demand from electric cars  = Current supply of electricity -50% supply when fossil fuels go away (ng/liquid fuels replaced by renewables) 

And the estimated cost to convert to solar, wind and batteries is 433 Trillion with a T, 20 times the GDP.

Charles Payne on the economy and in particular, inflation: Biden's intentional war on fossil fuels energy disaster started by Obama. Why anti environmental and bird/bat(whale) killing wind and solar can NEVER come close to replacing fossil fuels. The cost = 433 Trillion!.  Government forcing anti environmental wind/solar on the market. Stifling new investments in crude and natural gas.  2022

Life without petroleum based products: 6,000 products made with petroleum.  Killing Coal. Fossil fuels and fertilizer. Biden praises high gasoline prices.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/84689/     2022

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2023, 10:16 a.m.
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The Truth Behind The Terrible Resale Value Of Electric Cars


According to Car and Driver, EVs typically lose more than $5,700 per year, for the first five years on average, and will end up costing owners about $28,500 in five years. Compare this to a gas-powered car, which typically loses less than $3,200 per year or $16,000 over five years. The reality is that for most EV owners, depreciation is an expense that has to be factored into your purchase decision. Let's take a closer look to understand why these expensively-priced cars have a hard time holding their value.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2023, 10:59 a.m.
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Repeating and emphasizing.

The cathodes for the batteries from my wifes carbon capture business are obliterating every single lithium battery in existence by a wide margin In every test.

This new technology has the potential to not only save the electric car industry but to help it replace the majority of combustion engines.

This is an applied, newly discovered way to use the end product of their CO2 capturing that breaks the bonds of CO2 into O2 gas which is released and solid carbon that is precipitated out and collected.

That solid carbon, their main scientist discovered can be used, instead of lithium in batteries. The source for that solid carbon will be the hundreds then thousands of their carbon capture units that will be in operation by the end of this decade.

Remember where you heard it first!!! 

It really exists with 100% certainty but almost nobody knows about it right now.


There will be numerous, very powerful players battling over this. One that few consider is the extremely powerful ethanol fuel lobby.

Electric cars = No gasoline use = no ethanol fuel demand = 40% less corn demand = Disaster for farmers/ag industry.

The unsolvable problem will still remain.

There is no way to replace coal and natural gas with solar and wind and also add +40% demand from all the electric vehicles. They will never invent solar and wind energy capturing devices that can triple the amount of energy they get because that would defy the physical laws of physics (you can't create or destroy energy). The sun and wind are very diffuse energy forms and that will always be. Wind turbines have to be turned off when the wind gets too high and the wind is often not blowing. The sun is weak but you can cover massive land areas with solar panels to gather its energy and call that GREEN. Like with bird/bat/whale killing wind turbine monstrosities destroying ecosystems and tearing up the ground for the raw materials.......fake green energy.

They last 20-25 years, then get replaced with the old ones filling up landfills.

While the planet greens up by 26% so far, just from the BENEFICIAL emissions of fossil fuels and the indisputable law of photosynthesis.......which we are told is killing the planet.

In the ground:

Fossil fuels have stored and compressed the energy over millions of years that came originally from the sun which powered plants/animals. They died and turned into massive deposits of decomposed and compressed energy(coal, natural gas/methane, crude oil) that are extraordinarily concentrated.

Concentrated fossil fuels are their own battery! All the energy is stored in them and goes with them. And they are easy to move around and store for very long periods. In your gas can/tank. At a power plant for instance where they are ready to use immediately when needed.

Wind and solar, to ever have a chance to produce a 50% share of our utility scale energy must be stored in massive batteries and right now, power plants don't have an efficient way to store it on a scale that massive.

My wife's carbon technology might be able to change the battery storage part but the wind and sun will ALWAYS produce ONLY diffuse energy and always use enormous amounts of land and always be very anti environmental/anti green.  ALWAYS!

CO2 on the other hand is a beneficial gas that's greening up the planet at only half the optimal level for most life(almost every creature eats plants or something that ate plants).

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2023, 9:22 p.m.
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'Overcharged': Major Study Reveals Alarming True Cost of Owning an EV, 'Fueling' Equal to $17.33 Per Gallon


The study from the Texas Public Policy Foundation said electric vehicles do not stand alone in comparison with other vehicles because of the “wide array of direct subsidies, regulatory credits, and subsidized infrastructure that contribute to the economic viability of EVs.”

“Adding the costs of the subsidies to the true cost of fueling an EV would equate to an EV owner paying $17.33 per gallon of gasoline. And these estimates do not include the hundreds of billions more in subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act,” the report said.

The study claims that a 2021 electric vehicle “would cost $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period without $22 billion in government favors given to EV manufacturers and owners” and said traditional gasoline-powered vehicles are cheaper than an electric vehicle without subsidies.

By 12345 - Oct. 28, 2023, 9:56 p.m.
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By 12345 - Oct. 29, 2023, 5:22 p.m.
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Oh SH*T, a BOMBSHELL Report on Electric Cars changes everything 

By metmike - Oct. 31, 2023, 3:14 p.m.
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The Biden administration with their fake inflation reduction act, and fake green energy are practicing socialism NOT capitalism.

It's the government NOT the markets discovering what's best for the economy and imposing THE GOVERNMENTS DECISION on consumers. The government is intentionally making the wrong choices for everybody except the government's agenda. The crony capitalists are happy to jump in and exploit these ruinous/corrupt  governmental choices/policies  to enrich themselves, while advancing the government's socialism.

The socialism is being imposed supposedly to save the planet from a beneficial gas, greening up the planet at only 50% of the optimal level for plants and most life.

Here's the REAL history with the rock solid proof:

Climate science was hijacked for this agenda. The United Nations created the IPCC(InterGOVERNMENTAL Panel on Climate Change)  3+ decades ago that only looks at humans being responsible for climate change and comes up with some whacko future scenario's.

Their regular reports are the climate "bible" for climate scientists, many whom work for their government.

Not only is the IPCC blatantly corrupt at science,  they actually REWROTE climate history to wipe out the inconvenient Medieval WARM Period.

That's not me speculating.  THEY DID THAT, I watched it and have the 100% proof.........which is censored. Think about how diabolical and powerful a group would have to be to actually wipe out authentic climate history based on almost all the previous studies(100+) and replace it with new studies that completely eliminate warm periods, 1,000, 2,000, 3,500 years ago and even warmer between 9,000 to 5,000 years ago in the higher latitudes.


You can thank that entirely for Biden's fake green, anti environmental policies being sold to us, ala government control using the "save the planet" complete bullcrap mantra.

The only objective of the Climate Accord in 2015 was/is to pass on wealth from the rich countries to the poor countries(I'm cool with that idea using honest means, compassion and generosity) and to economically weaken the rich countries so they will no longer be able to consume so many natural resources. I'm cool with that idea too as a practicing environmentalist that conserves natural resources and fights REAL pollution.......HONESTLY!

Funny thing about that. Solar, wind and batteries are having the opposite impact as they tear up the earth for raw materials, cause pollution,  kill wildlife and destroy ecosystems.

Fossil fuels biggest impact has been greening up the planet by 26% since the Industrial Revolution, going from 290 parts per million to 420 ppm.

Each +5 ppm = +1% in photosynthetic productively 

                Death by GREENING!                        


By metmike - Nov. 10, 2023, 1:34 a.m.
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By metmike - Nov. 10, 2023, 7:46 a.m.
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Same extremely negative pattern, that's even worse in some cases for solar, wind and green energy indices that are all failing from real world UNDER performance that shows the promises were mostly green fairy, manufactured schemes to benefit crony capitalism and government agendas.


By metmike - Nov. 10, 2023, 9:04 a.m.
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This is a biased source and I acknowledge bias from the other side with constant attempts to balance that by using solid data/facts only.

What's really going on with the electric car market?


By metmike - Nov. 10, 2023, 9:10 a.m.
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I stumbled on this chart.

WOW! I will guess that demand for batteries on electric cars exceeding supply caused the enormous spike higher. The 75% drop in price, obviously means that supplies are better meeting demand.  See below. 


Lithium Stocks Are a Buy After Latest Selloff

 We’re bullish on lithium prices despite forecasts for continued price declines.